IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode 25 · 2 months ago

6 IoT Challenges Most Companies Will Face


Ever wondered whether the problems you have with IoT are shared with anyone else? Wonder no more. Steffen Sorrell, Chief of Research at Kaleido Intelligence, has the answers. The research house recently surveyed over 750 companies about the difficulties they have with their Enterprise IoT projects, and the results may surprise you.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The six top IoT connectivity concerns companies deal with on a regular basis
  • Why hardware design is so complex
  • The challenge of engaging with multiple connectivity service providers
  • The consequences of poor global coverage
  • How the new Billing and Charging Evolution (BCE) framework is more profitable.

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from S I that shares real iot stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned and innovation strategies that work. In each episode you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Hello, this is nick girl's CEO Best I, and in this week's episode we have a first repeat guest. It's Stephen Stephan sorrel of Collido intelligence. Is the CO founder and the head of research. There are a company, UK based, analyst company, but with clients all the way around the world and there are no very hot space. They were probably the first standalist company to form specifically to look at the issues of Iot contractivity and actually even within that, specifically to look at the issues of roaming, and that was our first podcast when we talked about that. But the reason that stefans agree to appear again is in the episode you're about to hear. They've now done in conjunction with a series of sponsors, of which side was one. What we believe is the world's largest IOTT survey for over seven fifty companies who responded and talking about what they found difficult in their iot projects and at some level of detail, and the results are pretty surprising. You'll hear them as we go through it, and they're surprising in the sense of, I mean, we know it's difficult, but we actually, for the first time, we've got some very granular information and on what the difficulties are and without doing the spoiler that the biggest issue of all is one that certantly for a SIP review. We always said was the biggest issue. In fact it was the primary reason for founding our company. But an awful lot of people have said no, no, no, that's not an issue, that's not an issue. And now what you'll hear is a d four center response and he said no, this issue is the biggest thing that they found. So we felt pretty good about that. But there's a lot more detail here. Stefan as all the data and we've got an analysis of the survey on our web page, together with the approaches for dealing with these issues, and Collido, of course, are the people with all of the data and all of the survey which, if you really wanted to. I think it goes to about ninety pages and it's very, very extensive, that it's truly global as a survey. So, without further Ado, let me hand you over to my chat with Stephan Sorrel, who is the CO founder and the Chief Research Officer of Collido Intelligence. Here we go. Hello, Stephen, and welcome to the IOT leaders podcasting and doing great thanks, I think. Actually, before we start, you hold the dubious distinction of being the first visitor on our podcast, and that's because we have a different subject to talk about today, which we're going to get into. That's this survey that you've carried out and we were one of the sponsors and so we were pretty pleased. Frankly, we're pretty pleased with the results. We thought it gave so mutually a hard data, improof points of what we've been talking about for a while. But I'm sure we come onto that. But just sort of warm things up and ease everybody into this, maybe you can just describe this survey and you know the number of people, types of people, methodologies, etcetera, etcetera. I mean it's actually the survey was born out of the fact that you know there are a lot of surveys out there that there's very few that are actually focused on the connectivity as the main subject. So that was really the starting point to understand what are the pain points, what are we missing in the industry? What to enterprise this need? So, as you mentioned, we collaborated with...

...theselves as responsor for other firms, and also in conjunction with Iot now, to engage with seven hundred and fifty nine respondents, in the end, enterprises from all around the world, through a combination of Iot now's reach, through our own reach as well as a survey panel that we frequently engage with. Really too, as far as I know, produced the largest ever an enterprise directed survey focus on cellular Iot conics. And Yeah, I was going to say I mean that's when we've been talking about it internally and obviously we've done a Webinar on this as well, but I believe it was companies above a thousand employees. Have I got that right? Of respondents where with our thousand, pretty meaty. And Yeah, I don't know. Of was he being an Iot company. We we look at a lot of research and whatever, but I've never seen a survey that asked so many, so many questudents. Must have found a lot of patient people, because I suspected this wasn't a five minute if you've got a bit it, can you just answer a few yes, no questions. I mean it's pretty meaty, right, and we're going to get into that. Yeah, that's right. So we had two distinct paths within the surveys. So we were interested in perceptions and views across the different landscapes. So first of all, we were looking at whether respondents were current or previous cellular Iot adopters, so having direct knowledge of their projects and experiences, and also those who had not had so far a cellular I t deployment. So we really wanted to understand the contrast opinions through there. And we also directed respondents according to the various verticals they're from. So this is gonna be a good one and see by trip up here. So we had transport and logistics, manufacturing and industrial energy utilities, healthcare and smart cities. So those are kind of like that's without having a little posted at the side of you. I wish I did at that point. Yeah, I got it. When you say something like that. You said there were five things and you start saying that, you think, Oh my God, I've only got four of my head. It arrives before so big comprehensive survey and it's tens of pages. The outputs. We're not going to go through that, but I think there is about six key takeaways, at least from an side perspective, that we thought were interesting. And I mean we should really set a bit of context here. We've been talking for years about Iot is difficult, way more difficult than it should be. Loads of data. You know the we talked about on this podcast. You me before. I mean there's gonna be fifty billion things connected by twenty twenty. There were eleven billion. I mean you know, it wasn't a smallness, it was darks. We didn't just miss the DARTBOARD. I think we hit another wall in terms of that prediction. We through the dark backwards. You know, use the number of gardener has said a percentable projects fail. You know, it's pretty doom and gloom. And what we liked about this survey is you're actually managed by finding so many people who are either, as you say, experienced or have not yet started, or in the early stages of experimentation, shall we say. You actually got sort of below some of the headline takeaways to find out. Okay, so when you say it was difficult, what was difficult for listeners? So it's percentage of people who identified these factors. We're going to go through six as being the things that really are difficult. And then they could identify more than one, couldn't they? So all the percentages for all six don't add up exactly to a hundred because someone can say, well, I found A, B and C difficulty. Well, I found B, D and f difficult, and so different percentages. But some of the numbers are, having said that, pretty surprising, as are maybe the things that they found difficult. And that's sort of a prompt for the first one.

Let's quickly ruttle through six takeaways. Having said that, there's industry, vertical Kurts, there's there's a hundred of plus takeaways, but the six biggest ones. Maybe we can just quickly rattle through these and then talk about how is an industry. We think we can make progress on all of these areas. Yes, so that the major one here to begin with is hardware. So of the unique respondent base stated that hardware design is a very complex and difficult challenge for them for deploying Iot and this is something you know, you and I discussed in the last time we were on this podcast. It's not enough the shelf market. You need certain customizations. You need testing to ensure that your device works on network, a network bee and so on. And also you have a situation where a lot of enterprises are not coming from the world of three gpps, of the cellular standard. They used to Wifi or other communications technologies. So they have to grapple with all of these different issues. They don't suddenly want to become a cellular or whether there's public networks. There's no private Lt. people can buy their own spectrum. I mean this is an area that is it's called hardware for a reason that it's getting harder because it's fragmenting. Satellite. WHAT ABOUT FIVE G networks? LICEL IN QOS? A lack of knowledge in the market. To give you an example, I was in a in a call the other day when you just mentioned private networks and the guy on the call mentioned the customer wasn't even aware that you needed a thin card to help her to set up the private lt network. So a little bit of a journey. It's not surprising. Eight people don't want that expertise be they don't want to do it the first place. But see, we thought as an industry he left it all behind. I mean it was all about software, right, I mean software, it's hardware, Mark Andrews something. And so suddenly here eight four percent of respond he said the number one issue was hardware design. And yet very, very few IOT companies and no, as far as I know, no Emino, no mode on network carperators have hardware expertise in their portfolio. It's kind of a what's wrong with this picture? What's wrong with this picture? We were quite like that one, I have to admit, Desti. We like that one because when we saw it we said, finally, finally, somebody understands. I mean, you know, why did you buy when we're raising money, you know what, why do you have a hardware business? Why did you buy a hardware design company? It's important. Oh No, it's all about stats, it's all about the software in the future. And then suddenly now is the data that said is the number one issue. So this is the one that we was the first survey we've ever seen. So I've wanted to thank you for that. So that's a big issue. I mean, nothing happens without the hardware. The hardware delivers with the experience and people well, just they recognize, at least now, that this is a big problem. So that's kind of interesting finding number one. What was the next one after hardware? So the second one was related to the perceived complexity of the connectivity ecosystems. So of the unique respondence saying that the need to thinking about on an international stage, the need to engage with many different connectivity service providers is a key challenge. And you can have a scenario where if you're deplying in country a, I mean that's all fine, you just work with one network provider, but if that network provider doesn't have service capabilities in another country that you want to ship and use your devices in, then you're going to have to go with a different partner. And then, for instance, you've got two different instances of connectivity management platforms, you've got two different instances of invoicing and...

...integrations for analytics and so on, different, possibly a different levels of service provision for support and things like that. So when you amplify that to x number of countries, then you've got a serious problem on your hands because everything related to that means additional cost and time for you and it's very hard to measure that cost. And this speaks, I think, too you know, when people listening to think, you know, how do we end up here? I mean we've been excellular for four two years. But the boat is that if it's mobile phone, these things aren't issue. I mean to take that first two, they're not issues. Somebody designed the phone. You didn't design your own phone. Secondly, your phone is global. You can go around, you can roam, and put point is that you only have one phone, not tener thousand or a hundred certain phones. And secondly, you typically go to a country and come back. And I know we'll get onto roaming, but it also speaks to the fragmented nature of the industry, doesn't it? Because you know, with eight hundred plus mobile network operators, none of them, even the best of the best of the best, struggles to get a true global connectivity, and that's the biggest of them all. Then you are basically having to build the car yourself out of the parts, which is an unsustainable value proposition. You have to be the aggregator as the user. And that's what, as you say, the survey saying, respondents said. I have to blue all this together and managed multiple portals, APRS, pricing contract it's also crazy people, you know, looking at it from the outside saying how did we end up here? You know, but the fact is it's here. This is where we are. When you consider diet, I mean the doing a sort of Napkin calculation the margins per device that you know they're not high unless you're in very specific industry verticals. So any additional cost you have to roll out your deployment is damaging the overall business case, to be honest, and it's surprised to your management. I mean, obviously we sell a dent global activity, but we also have an r o I tool that we work with customers to try and identifying prospects, to try and identify the hidden costs of what does it actually cost to manage to platforms and have? Basically, the cost is the extra people you have to have to take data out of all these systems and squash together so that when you go to management you present a unified view of the data. You may end up having six, seven people. You know, certain analogical corporation, all going into different platforms and all looking at pricing and contracts and in this changing things. So I get proprietary silos, not a global solution. That's we're going down the percentages. So what was the third most common reason for people struggling? Okay, so this was an interesting one, again related to the current perceived state of the connectivity ecosystems of the respondence feel that connectivity performance, quality of service when the go across international markets is not good enough. So that's really an issue of you know, what respondents is thinking about the current state of both roaming as well as localization, because, you know, roaming, or the way that it's set up today, is really on a best effort spaceis and it's also the technical nature of it means that you have higher latency than than you do want a domestic connection. So sometimes you might want to localize for to improve that performance, to reduce the latency, or you want to engage with a provider who's going to be able to have some, you know, local infrastructure for the routing of data, but that's not really common today and of course, not that many providers enable a relatively simple way to localize the connection. Of course, here I'm talking about things like EU I C C or easing as one option. Um, you know, while a lot of then those to support Ethim for their customers, it's actually when,...

...when the customer wants to migrate to a different profile, that means that the everything moves from one platform to another. And then you you go back to the challenge that we just talked to. Is that changing the SEM in your phone. That's right, and what people tell us is that. I think this is a really important because a lot of people are claiming that the I C C solves everything, but actually, arguably, the I C C in the form of Sim and profile switching, makes things, I would argue, makes things worse if you don't solve that problem that you just talked about, because if the I C C sims facilitate a quicker transfer between operators, then actually you're going to get I mean, we've seen mark being collateral from people who say, Oh at I sec Movi, which means you can now transfer across two hundred vendors operators, and you start thinking, oh my God, that's two hundred platforms, two hundred sets of Apis, two hundred prisings, two hundred supports calls fun different companies. I mean that's actually making things worse. and to your point about localization, people have to ask the second question, which is what when you transfer, are you roaming or localizing? Because your point about latency is if the data is being beautiful technical term, tromboned, if the data is being let's take Vota phone, G DSP, which is a great solution, but everything is it's roaming out of the Netherlandsflut of Netherlands. So you know we have a lot of customers in Africa and your data has been tromboned back to the Netherlands and then back into the local country. And so you can go from a latency point of view. And so one of the questions that we have to ask is can you actually localize? Are you not roam across multiple operators? Therefore keep the data in country? Data sovereignty reasons, latency reasons? Can you actually have a collection of M and os that you can localize onto from a single sim that you don't make things worse by switching the M Z and then doing even more roaming? And the list comes out from this part of the survey. And most people, I know we can localize onto sixteen operators from a sim and then roam to a total of seven or sixteen localized connections from one sin. But most people are using today at least, using the U I C C to enhance roaming. And again this is coming out and people saying, well, that's not a global solution, that's to some extent making things worse and therefore they go for different sins so they get back to where they started. Yeah, when we talked to the RSP guys, for them remote Sim provisioning guys, the Talons, G and D, s idemia's troop bones and so on. So those are the guys who are managing that over the subscription and switching at the back end for EASIM. Invariably, they say, for the majority of customers in today's present environment, east and it's just there for insurance purposes. So what that means is, like you say, they're using the actual connectivity providers, using a roaming profile with that sort of extra assurance to the enterprise, saying if there's some serious trouble, you can twitch networks, sort of last resort, you can pull the red handle and something will happen, but we don't expect to be using it on a daily day operation exactly because you know you're going to be looking at the way that a lot of providers have deployed it. You're going to be looking at quite a substantial cost to actually migrate those devices onto another platform, because the technical reason for that, again for listeners, is because is like the tip of the iceberg, which we've done a web an imus recently. It's a bit of ice above the water and it looks nice and small and manageable, but when you go below the water lane, the billing engines, the RS smsr, which does the switch, they're all residents at all the other bits of functionality, the SMDP, the...

M Z ranges and et CETERA. It's all residents within each operator. So if all you're doing is passing the connection between operators under the water line, then actually it doesn't solve the problem. You're just basically roaming and because of things get worse. The incentive is is you're still primarily with one operator whose financial incentive is to hold onto the connection, not to Rome because it means they're giving revenue away. So you've got to take the stuff from under the waterline and abstracted and making it agnostic so that you have choice of where you get your data from, which we call the way of Ce bring your own contract. But the real question, I think, is in order for all of this to work, and we'll get onto that at the end, is control, that the switching rules and the logic must be in the hand of the users, not in the hands of the people who have the proprietary interest to keep the connection on their own network. And so the question is, who controls the switch? is another we're looking at it all right, number three, we need to keep going to that three. Number Four. What's the fourth biggest inhibitor that the survey said? Okay, so another interesting one related to something you touched upon earlier. The responsese saying that robust global coverage is lacking, and this is, you know, something that you mentioned earlier. So your biggest tier ones, they do have significant coverage, but they still have black spots, they still have areas where they are only able to access, let's say, one roaming partner, and when you get into a situation like that, you might have your device operating in the field with a poor signal, for example, because it's not able to attach to a more optimal network or because it might be outside of the main coverage footprint. Then you know, while they may be able to service it, then you're also looking at inflated costs for your connectivity. You know, really what the response are looking for is for a provider to say, okay, we can provide connectivity in country x, but you know you're gonna have a choice as network providers and you know you're not going to be forced onto networks that you don't want, which might impact either pricing or performance as well. It's really education, in global coverage, because especially the people who haven't studied implementation yet, because they think there is global coverage. Because, again, back to mobile phone, cellphones, there is global coverage. But of course when you look at the stats on the website, the coverage is per head of population, not per coordinate and that's because the cap x model to fund the Towers is massively expensive. So you can't put towers everywhere. You put towers where the population is, but Iot deviruses are not necessarily where the population is. So straight away you've got a mismatch. And then, because not everybody does a roaming agreement with everybody else. So you have a series of world gardens and you may have a roaming agreement in a can free but, as you say, the data rates might be really, really expensive. So the question is, well, I can roam you, but your bill goes up. I mean really, your customers are saying that. Why can't it just be interrupt why can't we have interoperability and why can't I choose? And there's a fundamental structural issue why you can't do that, because there is no such thing as a mega global m and O that has towers everywhere and a Roman agreement with everybody else, and there never will be and therefore, by definition, there will never be global coverage at that level of the stack. It has to be a type play that is truly agnostic. That's a pretty big one. Typically, what we find is when, after people have done their first iot project, then they understand this issue, but going into it they think, no, that can't be the case. I get roaming every and the answer is no, you don't, and you're a business case is predicated on a card activity. We talked about verticals. You know, hard managers being able to...

...connect is not a great yeah, and so that's a really big issue. All right, that's four. How about number five? So coming in closely to the previous one, and this is an interesting topic that we discussed in our last podcast together. So forty six percent of respondents raised concerns over the number of countries that are restricting permanent roaming. So permanent roaming, just for the listeners, is basically your iot device lands in the country and it spends longer. There's no strict definition that. We typically say longer than ninety consecutive days and often it can be very longer, very much longer than that. You know, up to years in a single country roaming. And you know, national regularity authorities as well as m n OS, are starting to look at this and say, hang on, how does this affect our networks? What? How does this affect our business? Should we be doing something about it? And some of those organizations are saying, okay, we are no longer allowing permanent running at a legislative level or in some mnose case they are not allowing permanent roaming from a commercial perspective. So then you have a big risk. Essentially dynamic, isn't it? Definitely, it's not like the rules are laid out into the world and everybody knows these things. Can I mean by in two hours time, there could be a change, probably will be changed somewhere in the world, of either a Emino who has fallen out with another Emino and says I'm not accepting roaming anymore until the commercial dispute is posed off, or a country could say I want to protect the local operator, therefore I'm imposing a you know, ninety day rule can be generous. I mean some of them are a day rules. And the notification period for getting off we've seen as short as we've seen is four hours, and which is to get off the network within in four hours, which again, if you think about some of the business critical use cases for Ioty, it's just impossible and you can't swap the similar device or anything like that. Again, it's an industry structural issue, isn't it's not surprising the regulators of doing this because you want to protect especially if you're a smaller country, you want to protect your operator. But but having that, the largest country in the world has permanent roaming restrictions. The the US have roaming rules, which surprises a lot of people, places like Brazil, India, China, Turkey, which is a famous one. So there's the large parts of the world where roaming is not allowed by the operators and not allowed by the regulators. So yes, another complexity, poor iot project manager, we are going to get into. So what's the answer? But if we have a pile of the issues, because the deserving data is really important, is this is sefty. Plus people who said this is what I found out. So the last one, what was the last one? A mble stuff. So for two percent, respondents raising concerns over security of devices and the environment. And you know, this is not really a surprising statistic. When you look at any IOT survey, security is always a big topic, especially when you're deploying these devices on maths. You could have real consequences if you know there's some kind of confidentiality breach and perhaps even more likely, the loss of connectivity availability. So we talked just now about permanent roaming and how you could potentially lose access to your devices within four hours. As you said, the similar situation could happen in terms of a security breach and then you could lose access to your devices for for God knows how many hours. And what does that mean from a monetary perspective? You could lose access to your job as well. If it exactly. It's one of the biggest reasons for changes just at the individual level of the...

...see it. So, and arguably, the fragmentation of the industry and component solutions and it all make this last point even more important, because you're having to deal with multiple companies to implement an IOT project. Then you're having to implement multiple security solutions, and then how on earth? So you not only ham to coordinate the operators, you have to coordinate security solutions. So I mean, let's stop there. And I there's many, many more questions in the survey and, as you said, survey, you know, is some of the data has been published with Iot. Now, with the publication and just before we get into okay, so what do we need to do about it? If people want to find out more about the survey, and how can people actually get access to their full surveys it? Contact Collido intelligence. Yes, you can contact us via info at Collido intelligence dot com and we can point you in the right direction. Okay, so that's K A L E. I d O lender scope. Okay, great, let's just move now to okay, so what's going to happen next? Clearly, you know this is a scenario which where we're trying to take individual component parts massive complexity and we've put that bonus on the customer. Despite what the industry says and all the working groups to try and sport things out, the fact is that the reality is is that the customers having glue solutions together themselves to make them work and they're not succeeding and it's one of the reasons, back to that staff that you know, we didn't get to fifty devices. We've got to eleven. You know, another way of saying it is we've not cross the chasm yet. We're in the early innovators and the early adopters and we have to cross the chasm and get into main street. So your ahead of research for Collido and CO founder. What do you think? It seems like this is not an area that needs small, incremental tweaks. There needs to be some pretty fundamental changes here, because it's not a sustainable situation when you get six of people. It's not like we're talking about eight percent and six percent having difficulties. It's a really fundamental stats which don't reflect great on the IOT industry in the players. So what's your take on what's going to happen perhaps over the next two or three years? That would hopefully give us a bit of hope will hopefully make it a lot easier, because there's no shortage of demand Viot and the distance efforts of Iot. People are wanting to do it. So what do you think of the big things that are happening in industry that will will help this, knowing it's not going to be maybe touching? First, on the hardware side, I think what we're seeing is, you know, the connectivity is more and more part of the early conversation among enterprises when they're looking to deploy. So it kind of makes sense that you need to have that hardware expertise ready to help that potential customer from the outset, to help them decide which radio technology are they're going to use. This is another status which I can't remember off the off the top of my head, but you know, there was quite a substantial proportion of response saying, you know, they're confused by the number of different radio access stand and of course they get sunseted regular exactly. Yeah, we're just in the middle of or just really starting to kick into gear in terms of two G is going to go away, three D is going to go away. Then what are you going to use instead? Do you have a fallback option? Are these technologies going to be working in the country that you want, for example with narrabanty or lt M for example? So I know you guys have hardware expertise to help customers in that respect, but I would hope that we would see more of that across the ecosystem. I think we're already seeing some of these hardware players, to a relatively limited extent, offering a sort of a bundled connectivity and hardware solution. So those kind of things are starting to crop up. I would expect that to increase in fue case. And we think that it's...

...not just bespoken cordware design. I mean we've we've done hundreds of bespoke byd read designs where you build in future protection, as you said, but it's also the ability to have scalable hardware design, so um sort of a firmware applet in the device, which will solve a lot of the issues because they it's not just the rat type, that radio access type, it's the battery life for management, which is key for a lot of devices, the way the modem interfaces with the connectivity, the device management capability is what's called lightweight. End To end. These are all the sort of acronyms that people will get to understand when they dive into these projects. But your ability to actually get granular level information of what's going on in the device, to manage the device. I mean really the Sim it isn't a sin. Back to the earlier thing. It's a small computer which also has sim capabilities in the edge aggregation device space. It's of the applications are processed at the edge. So it's a computer designed for specialist tasks, which is different for every use case. So yes, I agree with you. It is very surprising that more people don't offer hardware type expertise and I personally think it's because the vcs the most companies are private and the vcs don't like investing in hardware companies. I honestly think that that's one of the reasons people have steered clear the opposite for you, but that we should why be focused on these big deployments, but I do believe that it's blame Ark Andrews and software is going to be we both swallowed the cool aid on that and now was suddenly realizing, oh well, maybe, maybe it's important, but there are very, very few companies that can do this that also understand out there's hardware, but to design whatever harder expertise has to has to kind of what about, and I can put you on Spartanaskis some predictions that your specialists in roaming. Clydo, is well known, arguably the best amnist defendants out there in roaming. What's your view on is there going to be an outbreak of pieces? Everyone going to do permanent roaming everybody else and there'll never be any any things cut off in the future, which was a wishful thinking. I think where a very important stage of IOT roaming. So in the last few years we've seen more and more demand for dedicated iot agreements among roaming partners rather than just using the let's call them gray roots, where they were just using their consumer agreements to run. I think that was quite apparent during the pandemic. A lot of MS suddenly found they still have a lot of roaming going on. Where's that coming around? No one's traveling. One or operators to us is because no one was traveling, no one was using their their phones abroad. So the water level dropped. When the water level dropped, suddenly these shapes emerged. They were under the water and they were called iota in country. They went on earth. Is that exactly? And then went how profitable are those contracts? And that's the point at which they went went, Oh my word, is this the pandemic actually exposed the problems with IOD roaming. Starting to see more commercial activity for dedicated IOT interoperator tariff agreements. The question is, you know, in the case of things like narrowband Iot or lt M, when you charge based on consumption metrics at the wholesale level, the current transferred account procedure framework for the tap framework, that's done on a daily basis. Sometimes you might not have accumulated enough data to actually register a record effectively. Some people could be using their NB IOT or lt M devices for free. Effectively. It's not profitable, it's not sustainable. So we're moving to a new framework called building a charging evolution, which will introduce new types of wholesale agreements, perhaps for NB IOT device, you could charge by the number of devices that were... on your network via a monthly recurring charge. That's for help in terms of profitability. But of course the fact that arranging those roaming agreements takes time to migrate from TAP TO BC is another hurdle, or suddenly a perceived hurdle that and then, I think they have to overcome. And then, of course you have to work out what is sustainable in terms of that charge and actually gaining some subtraction. How long all those agreements stay in place? I was talking to a utility metering company to the day. Talked about the meters are in the ground for fifteen years and they certain country, a certain operator, said, Oh, don't worry, we've got upon in rowing agreement in place for narrowbend iote in that country. So well, we've never seen any of these rowing agreements more than a year. So you know the meter is going to be in their fifteen years. As you said, enterprises coming down to Zeria, people are creating new economic models to try and get some money and because no one's making any money. You know, you have to ask yourself the question, is roaming fatally flawed and if so, given that you have all these operators, what is the model? And of course our vieuge regular listeners will know, is that it gets the star Alliance. It's you distribute connectivity but you don't Roam, you localize so that the operator per country, like star alliance in the island industry, is actually very, very happy and the customer, it's not that you never roams, you don't roam as merge and the customer's risk profile is traumatically not going to get kicked off for localization. But again, that is a model that takes a long time. It means interconnects along a certain way and most operators haven't yet done a U S C C empty sack. So they're doing what's called global to redirect for none. So you have U I C C and non U I sec. So the roaming model is certainly head to a year ago. There's a lot more discussion on roaming and what it will mean and I think Pandemi did drain the swamp, which a lot of people saying I'm not going to do any roaming at the very, very low end because I can't make money on it. I mean I want to be a good citizen, but I can't make money. That's not great for the industry. So you know, another thing that we do is even just to say, well, where can you roaming and where is their narrow band diote roaming? I don't mean by country or by operator. Is it on that street corner upside there? Is there a narrow band signal? The idea of network sniffers that we've certainly created networks sniffers for installers where you can actually sniff the networks to see what's the reality the versus what it says on the website, because at the end of the day is the reality that counts. And there's a fixed machine. You can't move it to finance signal. It's fixed. So I think the roaming model is flawed. And there we see activated. We see a device charges a lot of creativity and charging models from our operators right now to try and get around like that. No one's making money. So a very changeable environment. It's still people trying to make the model work, but no one's really made it work. Yeah, exactly. It's quite a manual process and complex to it's a lot of work for a while people. Let me ask you one of the one, the S M E U I C C. So the holy grails, don't worry, cavalry is coming, but don't worry, the I C C is going to solve all of this. The U I C S is the SIM is going to solve all this. I gave the view that actually right now could actually make things worse. Do you think EU, I C C and Sim will cause sort of shake out in the industry? In the you know, there's I saw some surveys that there's over thousand companies in the IOT space. We've seen industry moves such as you know. We've seen people pull out of the IOT business. We've even seen the biggest IOT player of all, Vota phone, announces potential to spin out of their upt business. Is Pretty big news. And yet at the same time we see,... know, interoperability and U C C standards is going to solve all the issues. We've also got the hyper scale ers who, of course, are truly global. I mean there's no thing is a regional hyper scale solution is truly global. I guess what I'm trying to pay is, do you think the landscape will fundamentally change over the next two to three years without being specific in anyone company. I think it will, and were already starting to see signs of that when we look at easim from an MMO perspective. You know, as I said, there's quite a few of them who do support the simple as I mentioned, it's kind of that stunted, shall we say, mechanism where you're if you want to switch, you're migrating from everything from platform a to platform B, and that creates a headache. We are starting to see some signs that M and I are willing to be a little more collaborative in that respect. I think that's starting off with their operated groups in the first instance, not to mention the fact that more MNOS are now willing to play a role at the wholesale level where, for example, they're willing to supply their profile to end. You know, it's kind of a broader shift, isn't it too? There's been a lot of country and that recently. Is that the envy and no star is in the ascent of the more and more people single. The there's a lot of things we have to solve, but it seems like it needs to be an MB and no solution, and therefore the more eminos are being more cooperative through their whole sale agreements to the mbry nose. That's it seems to be a trend. I mean, when you take China out of the equation and you look at the rest of the Iot market, we've seen higher growth from IOT DR nose overall versus Mnos, and there's a big reason for that, and that's because, as you mentioned, you can have agnostic type model where, in the case of the eastern you're aggregating different profiles across a single platform to help optimize that solutions, and that's not typically been available through emino strategies. has led to some inflexibility for their customers, whichich the survey is sues. Yes, it's a fairly minor description of what the survey I'm conscious of time stuff and it's such a big subject and this is the second time around we've addressed it. So what I'm going to suggest is that we I'm sure you're going to revisit it. I'm sure there'll be a three pet as the American says. Well, do it again, because this landscape is changing so fast. I guess the good news is from Europe perspective there's certainly there's so many questions around this space that you're actually positioned at the heart of the issues in Iot right now. So from a collider intelligence point of view you're a very relevant analyst firm because you're at the heart of these issues. So I'm sure that keeps you busy Um and from I would just say to listeners from an s type point of view, we do have a lot of information on our website on the survey, a lot more detail than we've gone into here, plus how s I addresses each of these issues with our model. That would really encourage you to look at that, because we were very eencouraged, as I said at the beginning, about these results because they in many cases we felt they were an endorsement of some of the architectural decisions that we've taken years ago around the subjects that we've talked about. But in the meantime, Stephan, I wanted to thank you again for doing this. I need to get your badge with a few times their own print, but John and we'll see what happens. But it does certainly feel like if we were to repeat this again in early twenty three, I think they're probably the landscape would have changed fundamentally again because certainly my experience of my team, whenever you get stats like this, which is pretty rare, but if you get stats that says think this or fifty percent struggling with that, you know this is not a sustainable situation. The industry will change, driven by consumer demanding consumer spending, and so it could be we are about, we're on the much of a pretty big change in the industry,...

...and it has to be, because the demand priority and what it can uses for society, Etcetera, is huge. So I'm kind of optimistic. But when you get data like this, changes on the way. But I don't guess. We've been hereby foot. Or haven't we? We, uh, which shall see, I hope. So. I think things are things are happening. Let's see whether they are successful or not. Yeah, we will. Okay, Um, so let's leave it there. For our listeners, you've been listening to Iot leaders podcast with me, host Nickeo or CEOS I, and with my repeat guest, Stephan Sorrel, Co founder and head of research for Collido intelligence analysts firm, and on the big subjects for Iot. And these really are the big subjects because, as we said, the largest survey, at least we're aware of, and many other people aware of this, ever been done across the largest number of corporations and they all were very patient and answer the most number of questions. And we've only skinned the surface of the research or I very much encourage to either come to our website or stepans and and to find out more information. If you're starting an Iot project, you can do a lot worse than find out what the issues are before you get started. That's probably the net takeaway here, given an eight percent of projects fail, educating yourself on what the issues are before you plunging, because you can get through these issues, but you have to navigate your path. So, Stefan, thanks very much as always for this. I look forward to speaking to you again, where we hopefully talk about how we've made progress as an industry on on this in a few months time. Yeah, thanks for having me it. Always enjoy these discussions. Yeah, okay, Great. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Iot leaders, a podcast brought to you by S I. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, helping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets learn more at SI DOT com. You've been listening to Iot leaders featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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