IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 5 months ago

The Broken Economics of Roaming w/ Steffen Sorrell


One of the biggest misses in the IoT industry, frankly, is that so few things are connected globally — only about 20%.

In this episode, I interview Steffen Sorrell, Chief of Research at Kaleido Intelligence, about why global connectivity is so complex.

What we talked about:

  • Reasons for connectivity complexity
  • The fractured economic model of roaming
  • The promise of eSIM versus the reality of eSIM
  • The importance of the SM-DP and SM-SR
  • An abstracted agnostic platform to solve some of these issues

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders.

You can find every episode here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for IoT Leaders in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to Iot leaders, apodcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digitaltransformation, swings and misses lessons learned and innovationstrategies that work in each episode. You'll hear our conversations with topdigitization leaders on how I at is changing the world for the better. Letiot leaders be your guide to iotete digital transformation and innovation.Let's get into the show. Welcome to the latest episode of Iotleaders, podcast the podcast that attempts to Demys ify the very complexand often confusing world of Io t, and I'm absolutely delighted in thisepisode to welcome Stephen Sorrel Stephen, is the chief of research atCalido Intelligence. So Stephen Welcome to the podcast yeah hello, thanks forhaving me on Nick sure, you're, welcome and and this this week's episode is allabout the e sym and we're going to really try and double click on this andDe mystify. The e Sim, not just in terms of the technology, but in termsof what it is why it's needed. What problems it solves. What are thecurrent advances and disadvantages of it? The state of the market where itmight go in the future, but but ultimately, what are the benefits tocustomers in terms of deploying it projects of the Esin? Now I have to sayto our listeners that collide research and Stephen in particular, havereleased a twenty page research report on this. That SI was involved in andthat is available now. So, if you're, finding this absolutely fascinating,which I hope you are don't feel the need to make a furious notes on this, becausepretty much all that we cover, hopefully, is in the report and a lotmore, but I'm sure is always will get most of opinions and views on the onthe widest subjects as well. So the report, just so you know, is beavailable through SI website and it's called the Global Iot. A connectivitythrough localization white paper you'll find that and I'll give you a lot moredetailed information on this. So with that, let's get going and as we alwaysdo on these podcast Stephan, that's pistil get to know you as a person, soI don't know where we re born. How did you end up? In a market research, an analyst company Iwas born in east bone, which is in the south of the UK. I always thought ofmyself as a as a Brighton lad, though I went to to college there and afteruniversity I went to the back there for a bit found a bit more exciting than,and what do you do at university just a background? Actually, I did a modernlanguages degree which is bit of a ways away from the industry I'm innow, but after I finished my degree, I started working in the F MC g sector. Ibecame an analyst that's fast on in consumer goods right, so I wasworking for a big American company there as an analyst, and while I wasdoing that, I sort of got a bit more interested in things like softwaredevelopment, so I started doing another degree remotely. While I was doing thisand I came across the Internet of things during this software developmentcourse and that led me to to a research house called juniper search. Let's justtake it easy, you covered a few things there. He did a degree in modernlanguages YEP. Then you were working in the software field and you starteddoing another degree that I was working in the FM C. MC g excuse me an e degree.I was sing a tree in my in my sparte and that led you into it that got meinterested in it. I first discovered about the smart home back in the statesand yeah. That's let me to become...

...interested in becoming a researchanalyst and that to you to juniper yeah, how about it juniper search ten yearsor so and funny enough I started. I was covering the Iot side of the thebusiness. So actually my first report, ment back in the day, was was on thesmart home sector so yeah I worked there over the yearsand as time passed, I think myself and a couple of colleagues who were alsoworking at juniper felt that maybe there was some areas of markets that wewere looking at, that we could. We could cover in more detail o a bitdeeper, really get onto the skin supers a pretty broad research. That's right!Yeah! That's right! They do cover a lot of a lot of areas yeah, but I thinkyeah. We wanted to do a bit a bit more, so we then branched off a couple ofyears ago and myself and two colleagues from from junior pole, started aresearch, hank firm, called Clado intelligence sin and one of thefounding members, and in that we are looking at mobile roaming as well asmobile connectivity, perfect background to the podcast, andso, with that background and espicially, I could't think of anyone better tocover this subject, which is a which is a complicated one. So, let's see we canunpack it, and you know, let's start off by first of all, talking about asubject that we have raised on this podcast a few times before, which is, Icall it what the hell happened, because if you go back in the back in the day-and I first started off looking at this area about two thousand and ten or sowhen I was in Sisco and we had Sisco and others like Ericson and an Ibam andothers, we all confidently predicted fifty billion things going to beconnected. Smart home, as you say, was clearly going to be one of them, butnot just Martham. It was basically anything with power and a right Paddress will be connected by now and we'll be here by now yeah an then wenow or in two thousand and twenty one. We look back and say: Well, actually wegot to eleven billion things, so we got to just over twenty percent and I callthat one of the biggest misses in the IT industry. So from your point of view,because, ultimately, this is a road that's going to lead to how the EastSim and the way it's implemented can address some of these issues. But fromyour pen I view, let's start off with. What do you think, are the main issuesto do with why weirs and industry missed so badly? I think the biggestissue is that it's not as simple as everyone thought. It would be. Youcan't just say: Oh look, here's my device. I can ship it anywhere in theworld. We will work. I will provide me data and I'll be able to get insightsfrom that data. It's it's nowhere near that simple. I mean you've gotcomplexity around the hardware design for it projects you. You know it is amis mass of of of different ideas, different end goals, different ways todo it, which means the majority of products. You can't just it's not justlike an ofter shelf thing like you can't it's not about fin me just buyoff the shelf and it works, and I think it's really. That is a really kid thing,because we find that you know we we've said before. We have two thousand a D Ia really iota as well, and we have two sand customers and because it is, it isamazingly common. How often customers come to us who are in the iotape is onthe project manager for an oot project. But there is this perception that wellI can you know I can put a Sim into a mobile phone and it works. I kind of assumed that was a given andI'm going to concentrate on all the other elements of Iot, particularly theapplication integration, the data usage, the security, but but something as asbasic as the device and the connectivity it's difficult. I meanit's really difficult. Isn't it yeah? That's right. I mean when you look atthe connectivity market today I mean...

...when you have an it device. You can'tjust have one sin and say this: This thing is going to work anywhere in theworld to the quality that I needed to work because of the way that the theindustry is structured. It's not that simple and the industry is structured, and Ilook at the MOS, the meal network operators. The industry is structuredin its whole series of verticals proprietary stove pipes, I meanessentially the MOS have a proprietary Sim and that Proprietary Sim forces theconnection on on to them. It's the way. The MODEL works which works for cellphones with some roaming and we'll get into this, but clearly does not work ifthe goal for it. If the goal is the holy grail is what you said, which iswhy couldn't I just have one semi in a device that just connects yea and Ithink for all of us- is an industry. We kind of we either ignored the problem,what we kind of assumed that would be possible back in two thousand and tenand now were faced with with this issue. So so we know that con activity is anissue so that so let me go to the next question, which you must guess us getasked all the time, because after we say to people, you know when it's notthat simple and they go well. What do you mean and their eyes stop to glaze?If the Oh God I didn't realize we had to do this, and I don't know anythingabout hardware and they say well conti by a device off the shelf yeah. Butit's not going to be optimize for the use case. You know you want to solve.So it's not like the IOPHON. So then, the question then becomes but sorelyroaming solves this, because it seems to solve it on my mobile phone. Isn't that what roaming never mind thisesin stuff, I mean the first thing they say is ye, but isn't that what roamingdoes now, you guys are real, deep experts on rowing. That's what yourwebsite says that you do I so what what's your take on that? So you knowwhy? Why doesn't Roman just sell that problem? I think first thing we have todo is go back to how roaming was originally established. Soit's a series of agreements between operators based on an understandingmostly of bilateral traffic, and these agreements were made at a time when theInternet of things or the business model, as was made at a time when theInternet things didn't really exist, N to M was was barely even a thing atthe time and really the idea is that you know we humans like to think we'respecial were actually. We are quite predictable in terms of how we travel,how we use our devices, and that is what the the roaming business model isabout. It's about predictability in terms of okay, this number ofconnections or this much data is going to be used in a roaming Sinara on mynetwork for a short amount of time. You know people don't go abroad and livethere and then Rome. Normally it's like three months. Isn't it I exactly threemonths on the network and then, by which time you've gone back home yeah like longer than ninety days, youcan consider that device as perminent ly roaming, which is a special use caseand is actually challenging, so I thinkwe'll probably get into a bit later, but when you have that business modeltransferred to machines- and we talk just now about how it is verycustomized- the fact that it's I spoke from project to project the type of usecase is different from product a product which means the data. The usagewhere these devices are shipped and used is, is no longer predictable andthat doesn't fit the roaming business model which is based on on thatpredictability. So that's one side of it into he to just just just to makesure I understand that, so that is an interesting way of looking at it. If Irepeat it back, what you're saying is...

...the romy agreements were basicallybuilt out of the consumer voice, essentially yeah, exactly where therewas a degree of predictability, so I'm network e and I'm going to do SimEuropean Mo and I'm going to do a Roma agreement with the US. No, but it'sbecause I know that I've got customers on my network in the UK and when theygo on holiday to the US or they work P few weeks there. I know that they're inthe US typically Eronia the US and then they're, going to come back withinninety days. So I'll just do any agreement like a reciprocal tradeagreement. If you like, you have to be the MO in the US, the evened probablydo similar one for American tourists. You know coming to the UK and we'lljust say we have a quota I'll. Let you have A, I guess: It's a they structuredthese Roma agreements. Are they structured around a certain number ofdevices and or a certain percentage of the traffic? Is that typically, howthey get structured yeah pretty much so it's space on thinga volumes, but Imean the major difference. Is You know today's smart fans are all high volumedata devices so when wholesale agreements are made and those are basedon traffic, then an operator can expect a reasonable return, but then, when youhave an it device, a lot of those devices are not consuming data. I exactly yeah. So,for example, when we look at the the roaming market when we look at thewhole sell, so the inbound roaming market in terms of revenues overseventy percent of that market is covered by io t devices that are usingmore than a hundred megabytes per month, which is a very unusual amount of datafor an it device to be using a normally it's, no one, it's less than a definitelyless than a hundred in some cases may be between between ten mega bites orsomething. The the revenues that you can get from now are very, very smallfrom a wholesale perspective. So, in that sense, the the business model toallow lots of devices to come in that don't produce a lot of data. Is it'snot a great one? Is You're not getting on your money from the data consumptionbut you're still having to cover your signalling overheads, so the IT devicesare still sending traffic of the other signaling paper, physicalinfrastructure, Sisco and lines and switches, say or pipes yeah, but you're,getting a percentage of a small number and asdata prices drop and it devices start sending proliferating and start sendingfrankly less and less dative a narrow band and help you one you're, getting apercentage of a declining number, your Sisco, rooters and switches s on oncoming down passed accordingly, so that presents. Would you call it like a growingfinancial disincentives in the industry? Exactly Yeah? I think we're seeing thatfear of so we talked about how a lot of it devices can spend a long time in thecountry and contrast to to humans. Yes- and you don't know in advance that it'snot like, I bought an IT airline Ticken, I'm coming back in two weeks. After myholiday in Florida Yeah I'm making I'm making a hundred thousand wiges any acertain number of them. I don't know how many many will be sold in the USand we'll stay there yeah a more devices. You have out there, the lowerthe incentive for the onprinciple producing small, an ounce of data. Onlyso the theme, the theme step- and we definitely hear this- I don't thinkpeople do I'm not er showing a light on this, because I don't think people dounderstand this is that you're describing as as you know, as ananalyst firm that spends all their time...

...doing this. In fact, you even left onefem form another one, just specifically to go into this. It's a model which isa Hierto repeat built for the consumer. Initially Consumer Boys, but certainlythe consumer market E and B, is set based on a set of assumptions that arenot just not applicable to right, Iot but increasingly unapplicable to io tthe number of devices as the number of devices grows. The financial incentiveand the practicality of roaming agreements drops yea, and would you saythat, and that's only going to carry on nothing that you've said says thatthere's something coming and certainly the will get on to een. But unless youchange the model what's going to happen is roaming is, is just not going to befinancially worth it, and would you say for the BIC for the operators and ifRoman goes away, then kind of divity goes away. So would you say that thisis one of the reasons why we were seeing and certainly were seeing thisan increasing number of Roman agreements being terminated at veryshort notice? Yes, so there's two elements which are two major elementswhich are placing pressure on the roaming market apart from the businessmodel, and this comes on the one hand from increasing operator hostilitytowards permanent roaming, yeah and that's driven, of course, by thebusiness model, as well as emergence of things like rowing, likeat home in you, which, which takes away some of the outside on the consumerside for France and the second side of pressure is on the part of regulatorsthemselves, particularly in markets like China, India, Brazil, Turkey, eventhe UA now has a specific regulation which says that business data mustreside within the country. Eean apply a traditional roaming model, so theregulators are having a big impact. On the one hand, while operators arehaving a big impact, on the other hand, so if you're, if you're in the shoes ofa customer saying okay, I want my device fleet out there. I know I wantit to be out there for ten years or more that, as from the e Osuri of conactivity, I don't want to have to be somebody who spends all the timemonitoring roaming agreements and seeing whether they're there or not andexactly exactly, I don't want to spend sixty plus months, developing andtesting and Proto typing and deploying only to find that a year later eitherthe regulator has decided that pomana roaming is not available. Not can havebeen so romy agreements. Rumi agreements are not financiallyfinancially lesson. Hers attracted the people, don't want them, they getterminated regularly and it appears to be increasing, not surprising, giventhat the financial incentive is getting worse and regulators are increasinglystepping up for a variety of reasons. Frankly, political and as well asprotecting the home town hero in canty and saying, like Turkey, is a very goodone, three months and you're off Ye, unless you put a say a Turk cellAsimina. So at this point I guess we've shot a lot of light on just you knowone element of why we didn't get to that magic. Fifty billion dollar figureI mean this is this: Is Not a nice easy, predictable world for people who arewanting to roll out IOT deployments so thus rising that some of the biggerprojects you on you look at that eleven billion versus to fifteen. Our researchshows us that most of the eleven billion were small regional projectsthat didn't need to go single, skew globally around the world and againyou're reinforcing why that is because, if you want to create one wigemanufacture, millions ship it round the world and it just works all the thingsthat you e talked about, make it almost...

...impossible. So so let's pay it thenbefore everybody gets so depressed and then go I'm not going to do it. I giveup because the it has a wonderful opportunity to reduce custom, increasedPRACTICI collapse, supply chains. We've talked a lot about in this series. Soon the horizon comes easin, and now the next thing people say is: Don't worry,I know the roaming model is broken and I know my perhaps they say I know mymodel realize I'm roaming, but don't worry e Sam and then that takes us intoECC e Simone ICS they're going to solve this problem. That's the the latestthing is, don't worry about it. We got got it covered. So, first of all forpeople who don't know, maybe just a little bit. Can you just get brieflydescribe what the e Sim is when we talk about what is it he sim and the EicsiStandard? What's that all about yeah, so Esimo a little bit of a misnomerthat stands for imbedded Sim, but actually doesn't have to be embedded?Can any sin form factor and really the main goal of the Esin? So the two parts you have the hard wereside, which is the SIM chip itself, and then you have ECC, which is a softwareframework for remote management and remote provisioning of the SIM card. Sothat's what separates it from a traditional sin cards like he meant inreal visioning the ability to push on in Z, an international mobilesubscriber identity over the air ye into the same as opposed to it, havebeing hard coded in as it is with a proprietary and exactly so. You spokeearlier about how your traditional seem you locked into the operator with eym.That's no longer the case, because you have this mechanism by the softwareplatform to download a new operator profile wherever you are in the worldso well. That means is on the production line. You don't have to havedifferent colored color coded Sim cards, depending on where they're going anymore. You don't even necessarily have to know exactly where they will end upany more because you can tem contains something called a bootstrap profilewhich is designed to initiate provide a sort of a start up. Ye Conic is alwaysconnect yeah, where about yeah wherever it is in the world, and then it willuse that bootstrap profile to downloads or activate and an operator profilewithin that country. But that's that's the right one. For that device exactlyso so now I feel better, I'm an use it now. I feel better we've solved of allof our problems. Have we not quite it's a it's a little more complicatedthan that an ICS is a place, a roll. We should make sure we cover that off aswell. So I get the ESSEM now I'm seeing the light here say: okay, wehave a e Sami's got a bootstrap, it connects, but it's connecting on thewrong network. But as soon as I've got connected, I can Ota over the air pushsomething in that sounds. That sounds good. So what's this ics on the bat, soECC is a standardized framework but made by the GS a so they have asecurity accreditations scheme. So they make sure that the production of thesame card is secure with certified players and on the software side youhave certified players as well. So you have two components for Iot, called thethe S: MPA D, The S S R, which is subscription management, data,preparation, subscription management, secure routing so and these these,these acronym are going to become very important in about spoiler alert, right,yeah, very important in about five...

...minutes. Yeah, so pay attention so yeah.The SN is there to securely store operator profiles right and then theSmar is used to take that profile and download it on to the device. You knowit's a cure manner. Okay, so let's lay out the table in front of us. It'ssounding good. It's sound like we've solved everything so far because weknow we haven't, but just for the moment from the mess we had previouslycalled the current state of the industry. We now have three things: Wehave the Besin, which is essentially programmable. It's over the air programof all. It has a Boorah, so it will connect. Tak Can put one sim in everydevice now ye and then localize it or push an Inez into it from an operatorthat you want locally and then you have two critical bits of functionality. TheSM, which is the database of you like of the profiles, the Mzda, the profiles that are available to be pushed in over the air and the star, is likethe switch. Yes in my service is the switch that says if this device isconforming is placed in this location, then push the INS in from the Smlisinto the device, so sounds like we shorted it now you and I, both thoughwe haven't, but a lot of the reason, I'm sort of dumping it down. If youlike a lot of people again, they come to us being in Global Company and say:Oh No, no, no, I've been told by of the players in the market or whatever thethe ESME and the SM and Stmr will solve all these problems and still eighty per cent of it projects arefailing right. So we know there's another gutture. So let's go to thenext next chapter. If you like, why does what you just describe not solveall the problems you talked about previously? Well, that's a very goodreason why, when we look at eastem today, you knowthere's a lot of devices actually enabled with Youson, but only give willtake twenty percent of those devices globally or actually using easinconductivity, and the reason is because the of the complexities surrounding theSP and the Smar, so to s not mean I it's not as simple as if I'm a customer,it's not as simple as me flicking a switch and saying okay, I want toswitch to on from operator A to operate to be because the smpathy live insidethe operator's domain, and normally what happens is when you switch betweenone operator and another one. You also have to switch over to a new SM and U Snd, which requires some pretty heavyintegration terms of APIS got it. You know, building schedules might bedifferent between our plays going again exactly so. This process can often takemonths not a switch. It's not a switch as, as you know, people think. Oh, Ican switch OTA, so I'm an operator A. I need to go to be wait. A second wait, asecond I'm over or even if you've got your mobile phone. I have a a votionsending my well phone. If I want to move to ee, I can get a pack code and Ican but but you're saying it's a little bit more similar to that, because if Iswitch from Botom to e I've not got a contract, I had a contract withverepoint. I've now got a contract with the YEA. I've now got a new pricingschedule and in the case of IODISE, if I've API integrated my device and thedata into my back and application processes, I may have different set ofApis. I've got a different support number to call if things go wrong, soI'm enabling a transfer, but I'm...

...enabling the Tran I'm solving theproblem. It is my words and keep me honest. We appear to with that level ofimplementation. We appear to be solving the problem for the Mo and mo a cancompletely move the device to mob and ever no a is done. On the customerpoint of view, the customer now has got to do a reintegration for mob which, ifyou only had a one or two devices- okay, but if you've got a thousand devices,ten thousand dices a hundred thousand devices, and you want to move them allthe time to optimize CONDACIA. Suddenly, you've created even more work foryourself as the user, yeah you're, looking at months of work and a lot ofthem at work, and this is one of the reasons why, when historically withthese em, it's it's mainly been limited to automotive applications, because they were able to afford that thosekinds of costs or at least absorb the costs, whereas other it segments were,could just couldn't, have folded exactly ouldn't rewrite their systemsand yea. So we almost got there. It looked like we could have global kindactivity, but actually, when we double clicked on it, there was ah yes but black in okay. Now this wouldn't be anSI podcast unless we said, but there is another way. So I know you guys, infact that's how we started our business relationship and indeed the the trigger for the theWhite Paper is that we were briefing you about about what we do and howspecifically we solve that problem. Okay, so so, just for our listeners, wedo S. I does everything that Stephen has just talked about, except the keydifference is to key differences. Is that we actually have. We run our ownsmpathy in our in our clod platform and we interconnect with a whole series ofMinos so that we can the net effect is we can switch between minos on a globalbasis, so you need localization in Turkey. We can stitch you to a Turkishsay y need localization in the US. We can switch you to Feriz Sam. You knowthe MC t otait our SIM, the same for China, etc. SETEE got fourteen of them,but because we control the we've got the abstracted S: Ns R, N S, M D: P,although we're doing the switch from the user point of view. There is no notnone of these issues that you refer to exist because you're always connectedto sis platform. You don't have to change your Apis. You still have thesame pricing. We have as we get fix pricing you. Don't you have the samesupport numbers so so our belief is that the only way you can implement theesin deliver on the East in promises to abstract the SS in the smpty up into ahigh level, which we call like a virtual mobile network operator vim asopposed to an M Vino, a mobile virtual Neko Cupra, because mobile virtualnetop raters typically come from the consumer background and enable thetransfer from A to b. But the user then has to do all that work. That months ofwork that you're, referring to so we've actually created a lot of the functionality that iswithin the Mo a software lay in the cloud, which means the devices canswitch and all these interfaces don't have to change, and that was thegenesis of of the research report. Your view as an independent analyst on thatsolution and whether or not that there's a step forward, not saying it's the wholeanswer, but a step forward in solving these issues. Yeah I mean, like you,said when you're provider so you're a provider who has many differentagreements with operators around the world. So in terms of that you're ableto connect with what is it over seven...

...hundred network operate ei over sevenhundred different networks with localization and roamin agreements.Fourteen localizations and, however many different Rome agreement, sobasically ubique yeah, exactly so from a coverage perspective. That's that'spretty much sorted, but the the key differentiator here is like hementioned the ownership of the sand. P and S M S. I mean if you can avoid thatintegration costs. If you can avoid the headaches that are associated withswitching Apis or new management in terms of your business relationship,then the business case for Esin becomes a lot more attractive right. The factis that Sim itself is a little bit more expensive than a traditional sym,because in most cases, there's more memory on the cards. It's a newertechnology and of course, then you have those software components: Yeah Mation, like a it's almost like a smallcomputer, there's an application on the card and software components thatexactly able the these capabilities yeah yeah. So I mean I think companieswill be able to see. Okay, I can see why I'm paying a little more for Esinfrom from sort of a high level perspective, but they might understandthe the four challenge that has gone into it in terms of investment andcomplexity. Yes, perhaps made them shy away, but when you're, if you're ableto deliver a solution that removes a lot of that complexity, then I thinkthe idea of paying a little bit more to receive something. That's future proofand standardized by it by the Gisa, give you a guarantee for for itprojects we talked about how roaming is perhaps not the best idea for long termprojects yeah so Heshem is. That is the answer to that, but if he seems to expensive and litstop you from getting into yeah and and that's why I said, Stefan that I stilldon't think it's you know yet the Holy Grail, because inreality it's an instant scenario. You don't know in it back to where westarted. You don't know you've had you you're going to have a problem untilyou've had a problem and then the second time around you say: Well, I'mnot going to do that again. I make sure I fix that before I get started so yeah.If are two zend customers are so I would say, seventy eight percent ofthem have come to us after a failed project and and so yeah the sin costs alittle bit more. The service may cost a little bit more, but if that means youet os nineteen, nine percent first time global ubicity out of every device inevery country, as opposed to ninety two or ninety three per cent and have toswap Sims or you have to change your Apis at the back end. Because ofbecause of the the SIMS tching problems that we refer tohis pretty soon realized that the costs of having to do that. All that work orthe cost of not having access to eight percent of your devices is many maymany times greater than the cost of spending another fifty or seventy fivecents on the semi. The problem is that until you really realize that they aregoing to be issues that little ex Ra cost for for per Sim perty Vice, I saysoh you're more expensive than a. So that's why. I think that we have tolook at Tso to the cost of ownership and Roi Metric, which is what the ITindustry in general had to do, because it's about delivering a businessoutcome and the business outcome is directly proportional to to thepercentage of Conecticut. You really actual the data, I'm getting data fromninety two percent of your your devices o ninety two percent of coffee, coffeemachines. Ninety Ninety, two percent of lockers: Ninety percent of heartmonitors is not a good, a business case... getting as near to a hundred percent.A is physically tenille possible. Let's so so we've made we've madestrides, and- and we are definitely seeing that this is the new model- Theabstracted s extras, extracted smpathy into a step, Tu profile into an esin toget one product COO, so we're we're definitely getting closer at the riskof complicating a little bit more, and we won't have time to go into this inas much detail. What about the guy who says? Okay, I get all that, but youknow my company I'm talking to it tells me I will don't worry about any of that,because there's something else coming so now wait. This is why it's confusing to people- Idon't know, there's something out: There's always something else comingnow, this time over, the horizon comes the I im. So can we cover that on this?As we're, you know, you're, educating people, I'm sure. So how is the ISENfundamentally different or isn't it to what we just talk about? It is, and itisn't okay, that's an easy answer, so I assume basically takes the esin concept,but instead of a separate simche yeah, it's it's integrated into the system ontrip itself, it's firm where it's software inside silicon, he saidexactly exactly so. What that means is that you, you have a smaller footprintwhen you're in your manufacturing devices, you don't even have space forOrsini anymore, which means that you need to pay their extra cost for theSIM. That saves your money and also it means that your devices can be smalleror you might actually have a Roman to put whatever else you ready might want,but does it. It also means that if you're going to go now, if the sin isgoing to physically disappear- and it's not going to be on the board, it'sgoing to be firmware inside the chip o the Mo Den, then, presumably, all themore reason why you need to not have lock in you needto have ubiquitous konody capabilities, because would, if you don't have it,the the remediate process is not just changed. The Sim you'd have to changethe whole module tising if he didn't have it now. That and yeah modules area lot more expensive and difficult to change a devices than Simsar yeah. Imean it's funny to you mention that I'm sure there are some listeners who havelistened to. I Silan said well, I am not coming, it's already beencommercialized. Well, actually, I assume might well have beencommercialized by a few vendors, but it hasn't been standardized e in the sameway that the EICSI ICATION has so right. Now you can't take an ice in and usethat standardized framework to switch operator. Profiles will what'shappening right now. Is The gas working on on standardization, then over thenext two three years or so we'll start to see commercialization ofstandardized ICIN available on the market, and that will offer a lowercosts. Hardware solution is I season. Okay, well, we've covered Stephane, wePESMA. Thank you for simplifying what is a very complicated environment andwe've covered a lot of grand we've. We've recovered the the connectivity,the complexity, the lack of adoption, the roaming, the commercial problems ofroaming, the user issues, the declining price that the frater broken economicmodel of roaming, which leads to lack of surety, going forward the promise ofEemaic the reality of these, the...

...importance of the S, mdther sm SR, andthen the idea of abstracted agnostic, a platform to solve those issues and theninto yes. But we still got some more issues to come, as there always is inthe it world a orses to come H, w h with doing it all again in regard tothe High Sim world so, and so hopefully, in the future, we have another podcastwhere we say are now. This is how we can solve the problem in the ICIN world,but we don't need to do that yet, because there's only a certain amountof new technology that people can absorb. I think the keep thing keeptake away is that he sin is needed. Bikers connectivity is needed. ESME isan important part of the solution and the S S R and the S M P and where theyare residents, are really important factors to take into consideration forfor listeners when considering global, particularly global IOT deploymentprojects. So a lot of content in this podcast I want to thank you again.Aquilo give a shout out to Calido your website, O your specialist in this area.This is what you do, and there is this twenty page report and which goes intowhat we've talked about and more in a lot more detail which is available inthe meantime. Let me wrap this up and thank our listeners. If you any of youlistening, I think, there's a subject. We should go into in more detail. Thiswas one of those subjects of people said. Can we really go into thisbecause it's complicated in there's lots of claims and counter claims, sohopefully, we've clarified things for you and if there's any other subjects,you particularly want to go to as please reach out to us, either tomyself on Linkin, Nick Earl yearly of Si es ye or just reach out to us onsocial media in other ways, and we will take your inputs into account forfuture episodes. But in the meantime, I'd like to think this week's guest onthe Iot leaders, podcast Stephen Sorrel O- was chief research, Calidointelligence. Thank you, Stephen and thank you for, as I say, taking areally complicated subject and simplifying it as much as is possiblefor our listeners. Thank you very much and thank you to everyone else forlistening. Thanks, defen thanks snake. Take it byebye. Thanks for tuning in toIo t leaders, a podcast brought to you by Si, our team delivers innovativeglobal Iot seula connectivity solutions that just work helping our customersdeploy, differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets, learn more at SIcom. You've been listening to io t leadersfeaturing digitization leadership on the front lines of Iott. Our Vision forthis podcast is to feed your guide to it and digital disruption, helping youto plot the right rate to success. We hope to day's lessons stories.Strategies and insights have changed your vision of Biot. Let us know howwe're doing by subscribing rating reviewing and recommending US thanksfor listening until next time.

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