IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 7 months ago

The Broken Economics of Roaming w/ Steffen Sorrell


One of the biggest misses in the IoT industry, frankly, is that so few things are connected globally — only about 20%.

In this episode, I interview Steffen Sorrell, Chief of Research at Kaleido Intelligence, about why global connectivity is so complex.

What we talked about:

  • Reasons for connectivity complexity
  • The fractured economic model of roaming
  • The promise of eSIM versus the reality of eSIM
  • The importance of the SM-DP and SM-SR
  • An abstracted agnostic platform to solve some of these issues

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders.

You can find every episode here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for IoT Leaders in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to Iot leaders, apodcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation,swings and Miss Lessons learned in innovation strategies that work. In each episode you'llhear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world forthe better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformation andinnovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the latest episode of Iotleaders podcasts, the podcast that attempts to deem mystify the very complex and oftenconfusing world of iote, and I'm absolutely delighted in this episode to welcome StephenSorrel. Stephen is the chief of research at Collido Intelligence. So, Stephen, welcome to the podcast. Yeah, hello, thanks for having me onneck sure you're welcome and this this week's episode is all about the e sinand we're going to really try and double click on this and demistify the sin, not just in terms of the technology but in terms of what it is, why it's needed, what problems it solves, what are the current advantagesand disadvantages of it, the state of the market, where it might goin the future. But but ultimately, what are the benefits to customers interms of deploying IOT projects of the e Sin. Now I have to sayto our listeners that Collido research and Stephan in particular, have a released atwenty page research report on this that SI was involved in and that is availablenow. So if you're finding this absolutely fascinating, which I hope you are, don't feel the need to make a furious notes on this, because prettymuch all that we cover, hopefully, is in the report and a lotmore. But I'm sure, as always, will get most of opinions and viewson the wider subjects as well. So the report, just so youknow, would be available through SI's website and it's called the global iot connectivitythrough localization White Paper. You'll find that and we'll give you a lot moredetailed information on this. So with that, let's get going and, as wealways do on these podcast step and that special we'll get to know youas a person. So I don't know where were you born? How didyou end up in a in a market research and analyst company? I wasborn in Eastbourne, which in the south of the UK. I've was thoughtof myself as a Brighton lad, though I went to college there and afteruniversity I went to live back there for a bit, a bit bit moreexciting than and what do you do at university? Just as background, actually, I did a modern languages degree, which is a bit bit of aways away from the industry I'm in now. But after I finished my degree,I started working in the FMCG sector. I became an analyst. That's fastand following consumer goods rine. So I was working for a big Americancompany there as as an analysts, and while I was doing that I sortof got bit more interested in things like software development, so I started doinganother degree remotely. I was doing this and I came across the Internet ofthings during this software development course and that led me to to a research housecalled juniper research. Let's just take it easy. You cover it a fewthings there. You did a degree in modern languages, Yep. Then youwere working in the software field and you started doing another degree Deli was workingin the FMCG FMCG, excuse me. And then the degree. I wasdoing a degree in my in my spare tay time. Yeah, and thatled you into Iot. That got me interested in it. I first discoveredabout the smart home back in those days.

And Yeah, that let me tobecome interested in becoming a research analyst. So, and that took you tojuniper. Yep. So I worked juniper research ten years or so andfunny enough, I started I was covering the Iot side of the the business. So actually my first report back in the day was was on the smarthome sector. So, yeah, I worked there over the years and astime passed, I think myself and a couple of colleagues who are also workingat juniper felt that maybe there were some areas of markets that we were lookingat that we could we could cover in more detail, go a bit deeper, really get under the skin. Juniper's pretty broad research. That's right.Yeah, that's right. They do cover a lot of lot of areas.Yeah, but I think, yeah, we wanted to do a bit,a bit more. So we then braunched off a couple of years ago andmyself and to colleagues from from Juniper, we started a research home firm calledClido intelligence. So I'm I'm one of the founding members and in that weare looking at mobile roaming as well as mobile connectivity. Fed background to thePODCAST. And so with that background, that's why I said, I couldn'tthink of anyone better to cover this subject, which is a which is a complicatedone. So let's see where can on the packet. And, youknow, let's start off by first of all talking about subject that we haveraised on this podcast a few times before, which is I call it what theHell happened? Because if we go back in the back in the day, and I first started off looking at this area about two thousand and tenor so, when I was in Cisco, and we a Cisco and others likeEricson and and IBM and others, we all confidently predicted fifty billion thingsgoing to be connected. Smart home, as you say, was clearly goingto be one of them, but not just small home. It was basicallyanything with power and IP address will be connected by now. We be hereby now. Yeah, and then we now we're in two thousand and twentyone, we look back and say, well, actually, we got toeleven billion things. So we got to just over twenty percent, and Icall that one of the biggest misses in the IT industry. So, fromyour point of view, because ultimately this is a road that's going to leadto how the Eastin and the way it's implemented can address some of these issues, but from your point of view, let's start off with what do youthink are the main issues to do with why we as an industry missed sobadly? I think the biggest issue is that it's not as simple as everyonethought it would be. You can't just say, Oh, look, here'smy device, I can ship it anywhere in the world. If will work, it will provide me data and I'll be able to get insights from thatdata. It's it's nowhere near that simple. I mean you've got complexity around thehardware design for IOT projects. You know, Iot is a mismatch ofof different ideas, different ends, goals, different ways to do it, whichmeans the majority of products you can't just it's not just like an offthe shelf thing, like you can't. It's not about fire me just buyoff the shelf in and it works. And I think it's really that isa really key thing because we find that, you know, we we've said before, we have two thousand. I really go Iot as well, andwe have two thousand customers and because it is it is amazingly common how oftencustomers come to us who are in the IOTI business, on the project managerfor an Iot project. But there is this perception that well, I can, you know, I can put a Sim into a mobile phone and itworks. I kind of assumed that was a given. And I'm going toconcentrate on all the other elements of Iot, particularly the application integration, the daythe usage, the security. But but something is as basic as thedevice and the connectivity, it's difficult. I mean it's really difficult, isn'tit? Yeah, that's right. I mean, when you look at theconnectivity market today, I mean when you...

...have an Iot device, you can'tjust have one sin and say this, this thing is going to work anywherein the world to the quality that I needed to work because of the waythat the the industry is structured. It's not that simple. And the industryis structured. And look at the MNOS, the mobile network operators. The industryis structured in it's so whole series of verticals, proprietary stovepipes. Imean essentially the Mo's have a proprietary sin and that proprietary sin forces the connectiononto them. It's the way the model works, which works for cell phoneswith some roaming and we'll get into this, but clearly does not work if thegoal for Iot, if the goal is the holy Grail, is whatyou said, which is why couldn't I just have one sin in in adevice that just connects? Yeah, and I think for all of us asin industry, we kind of a we either ignored the problem or we kindof assumed that would be possible back in two thousand and ten and now we'refaced with with this issue. So so we know that connectivity is an issue. So that so let me go to the next question, which, youmust guest us get asked all the time because after we say to people,you know what, is not that simple and they go well, what doyou mean, and their eyes start to glaze tically the God, I didn'trealize we had to do this and I don't know anything about hardware. Andthey say, well, can't I by a device off the shelf? Yeah, but it's not going to be optimized for the use case you know youwant to solve. So it's not like the IPHONE. So then the questionthen becomes but surely roaming solves this, because it seems to solve it onmy mobile phone. Isn't that what roaming. Never mind this e Sim stuff.I mean the first thing they say is yeah, but isn't that whatroaming does? You guys are real deep experts on roaming. That's what yourwebsite says that you do. So what's what's your take on that? Soyou know, why doesn't roaming just sold up problem? I think first thingwe have to do is is go back to how roaming was originally established.So it's a series of agreements between operators based on an understanding mostly of bilateraltraffic, and these agreements were made at a time when the Internet of things, or the business model was was was made at a time when the Internetthings didn't really exist. MTOM was was barely even a thing at the time. And really the idea is that, you know, we humans like tothink we're special, but actually we're quite predictable in terms of how we travel, how we use our devices, and that is what the the roaming businessmodel is about. It's about predictability in terms of okay, this number ofconnections or this much data is going to be used in a roaming scenario onmy network for a short amount of time. You know, people don't go abroadand live there and then roam. Normally it's like three months, isn'tit? Exactly on the network and then, by which time you've gone back home. Yeah, like longer than ninety days. You can consider that deviceas permanently roaming, which is a special use case and is actually challenging,which I think we'll probably get into a bit later. But when you havethat business model transferred to machines, and we talked just now about how itit is very customized, the fact that it's bespoke from project to project.The type of use case is different from project to project, which means thedata, the usage where these devices are shipped and used is is no longerpredictable, and that doesn't fit the roaming business model, which is based onon that predictability. So that's one might of it in terms. So justto just just to make sure I understand that. So that is an interestingway of looking at it. If I...

...repeat it back, what you're sayingis the Rome agreements will basically built out of the consumer voice. Essentially.Yeah, exactly, where there was a degree of predictability. So I'm networkA and I'm going to do they'm a European M no, and I'm goingto do a roaming agreement with the US? Em No, but it's because Iknow that I've got customers on my network in in the UK and whenthey go on holiday to the US or they work perhaps a few weeks there, I know that they're in the US the typically you're only in the USand then they're going to come back within ninety days. So I'll just doany greement, like a reciprocal trade agreement if you like. Yeah, betweenthe Emino in the US. You have no will probably do similar one forAmerican tourists coming to the UK and we'll just say we have a quota.I'll let you have a I guess it's are they structured at these Romi agreements? Are they structured around a certain number of devices and or a certain percentageof the traffic? Is that typically how they get structured? Yeah, prettymuch space on a second expected volumes, but I mean the major difference is, you know, today's smartphones are all high volume data devices. So whenwholesale agreements are made and those are based on traffic, then an operator canthey expect a reasonable return. But then when you have an Iot device,a lot of those devices are are not consuming data. There is exactly.Yeah. So, for example, when we look at the the roaming market, when we look at the whole cell so the inbounds roaming market, interms of revenues, over seventy percent of that market is covered by IOT devicesthat are using more than a hundred megabytes per month, which is a veryunusual amount of data for an Iot device to be using. Normally it's normallyit's less than definitely less than a hundred. In some cases maybe betain between tenmegabytes or something, and the the revenues that you can get from noware very, very small in from a wholesale perspective. So in that sense, the business model to allow lots of devices to come in that don't producea lot of data would is it's not a great one. Is You're notgetting your money from the data consumption, but you're still having to cover yoursignaling overheads. So the IOT devices are still sending traffic of the ever signalingthey for physical infrastructure, Cisco, and Justin s riches, say, orpipes. Yeah, but you're getting a percentage of a small number and asdata prices drop, an Iot devices start sending proliferating and start sending, frankly, less and less data of the narrow band and help one, you're gettinga percentage of a declining number your Cisco rooters and switches on coming down pastaccordingly. So that's presents, would you call it like a growing financial disincentivein the industry? Exactly. Yeah, I think they're seeing that fear ofso we talked about how a lot of IRT devices can spend a long timein the country in contrast to humans. Yeah, and you don't know inadvance that. It's not like I bought an airline taking. I'm coming backin two weeks after my holiday in Florida. Yeah, I'm making and making ahundred thousand widgets and a certain number of them, I don't know howmany many will be sold in the US and will stay there. Yeah,the more devices you have out there, the lower the incentive for the operatorif they're producing small amounts of data. And so the theme, the themeStepan and and we definitely hear this. I don't think people do. I'mglad was shining a light on this because I don't think people do understand this. Is that you're describing as a as a, you know as an analystfirm that spends all their time doing this.

In fact, you even left anhonest fem formed another one just specifically to go into this. It's amodel which is a very to repeat, built for the consumer, initially consumervoice, but certainly the consumer market be and B is set based on aset of assumptions that are not just not a livable to white Iot but increasinglyunapplicable to Iot the number of the devices. As the number of devices grows,the financial incentive and the practicality of roaming agreements drops. Yeah, andwould you say that and that's only going to carry on. Nothing that you'vesaid says that there's something coming. And certainly the will get on to easting. But if, unless you change the model, what's going to happen isroaming is is just not going to be financially worth it. Would you sayfor the book, for the operators? And if roaming goes away, thenconnectivity goes away. So would you say that this is one of the reasonswhy we were seeing, and certainly we're seeing this, an increasing number ofroaming agreements being terminated at very short notice? Yes, so that's two elements whichare two major elements which are placing pressure on the roaming market, apartfrom the business model. And this comes, on the one hand, from increasingoperator hostility towards permanent roaming. Yeah, and that's driven, of course,by the business model, as well as emergence of things like rowing likeat home in you, which takes away some of the upside on the consumerside for forms, and the seconds side for a pressure is on the partof regulators themselves, particularly in markets like China, in India, Brazil,Turkey. Even the UAE now has a specific regulation which says that business datemust reside within the country. Everything you can apply a traditional roaming model.So the regulators are having a big impact on the one hand, while operatorsare having a big impact on the other hand. So if you're if you'rein the shoes of a customer saying, okay, I want my device fleetout there, I know I want it to be out there for ten yearsor more. That passion for them and of surety of connectivity. I don'twant to have to be someone who spends all the time monitoring roaming agreements andseeing whether they're or not and exactly exactly. I don't want to spend sixty plusmonths developing and testing and prototyping and deploying only to find a year later, either the regulator has decided that permanent rhyming is not available. That canhappen. So roaming agreements. Roaming agreements are not financially of financial lesson,as attractive. The people don't want them. They get terminated regularly and it appearsto be increasing not surprising, given it the financial incentive is getting worseand regulators are increasingly stepping up for a variety of reasons, frankly political andas well as protecting the hometown hero in the country and saying, like Turkeyis a very good one. Three months and you're off, yeah, unlessyou put a, say, a Turk cell similar. So at this pointI guess we've shown a lot of light on just, you know, oneelement of why we didn't get to that magic fifty billion dollar figure. Imean this is this is not a nice, easy, predictable world for people whoare wanting to roll out IOT deployment. So not suppizing that some of thebigger projects, you look at that eleven billion verses the fifty. Ourresearch shows as that mostly eleven billion was small regional projects that didn't need togo single skew globally around the world. And again you're reinforcing why that is. Because if you want to create one whigit, manufacture millions, ship itaround the world and it just works, all the things that you talked aboutmake it almost impossible. So let's pivot,...

...then, before everybody gets so depressedand they all right, and I'm not going to do Iot. Igive up, because the the IOT has a wonderful opportunity to reduce costs andincrease productivity, collapse supply chains, we talked a lot about in this series. So on the horizon comes he sim and and now the next thing peoplesay is, don't worry, I know the roaming model is broken and Iknow my perhaps they say, I know my model realizes on roaming, butdon't worry, he same. And then that takes us into EU SEC,ECM and e SEC. They're going to solve this problem. That's the latestthing is don't worry about it, we got it covered. So first ofall, for people who don't know maybe just a little bit, can youjust get briefly describe what the e Sim is? When we talk about whatis any seem and the Ey SEC standard? What's that all about? Yeah,so e Sim is a little bit of a misnomer. Stands for embeddedSim but actually doesn't have to be embedded. Can any any sim form factor andreally the the main goal of the e Sim. So there's two parts. You have the hardware site, which is the the SIM chip itself,and then you have Ey Sec, which is a software framework for remote managementand remote provisioning of the SIM card. So that's what separates it from atraditional SIM card. Like you mentioned earlier, visioning, the ability to push innin Zi and international mobile subscriber identity over the air, yeah, intothe SIM as opposed to it have being hardcoded in, as it is,with a proprietary Emma exactly. So you spoke earlier about how your traditional Simyou locked into the operator. With e Sim that's no longer the case becauseyou have this mechanism via the software platform to download a new operator profile whereveryou are in the world. So well, that means is on the production line. You don't have to have different colored color coded Sim cards depending onwhere they're going anymore. You don't even necessarily have to know exactly where theywill end up anymore, because you can te Sim contains something called a bootsthat profile, which is designed to initials provide us sort of a start up. Yeah, connectivity, always connect, yeah, wherever, yeah, whereverit is in the world, and then it will use that bootstrap profile todownloads or activate and an operator profile within that country. But that's that's theright one for that device exactly. So so now I feel better. I'ma user. Are Now I feel better. We we've sold all of our problems, have we? Not Quite. It's it's a little more complicated thanthat. An EU SEC is a plays a role. We should make surewe cover that off as well. So I get these in now I'm I'mseeing the light here. Say, okay, we have a ECM, it's gota bootstrap, it connects, but it's connecting on the wrong network.But as soon as I've got connected, I can Ota over the air pushsomething in. That sounds that sounds good. So what's this EU sec all about? So the EU SEC is a standardized framework made by the GSMA.So they have a security accreditation scheme. Ye, so they have make surethat the production of the SIM cards is secure. With certified players, andon the software side you have certified players as well. So you have twocomponents for Iot, called the SMDP and the SMS are, which is subscriptionmanagement, data preparation, subscription management secure routing. So and these are,these are, these acronyms are going to become very important in about spoiler alert, right. Yeah, very important in about five minutes. Yeah, I'mso pay attention. So, yeah,...

...the SMDP is there to securely storeoperate a profiles, right, and then the SMSR is used to take thatprofile and download it onto the device in a secure manner. Okay, solet's lay out the table in front of us. It's sounding good. It'ssomething like we've solved everything so far, because we know we haven't. Butjust for the moment, from the mess we had previously called the current stateof the industry, we now have three things. We have the easing,which is essentially programmable. It's over the air programming will it has a bootstrap so it will connect to can put what once in in every device now, Yep, and then localize it or push an M Z into it froma an operator that you want locally. And then you have two critical bitsof functionality. The S M DP, which is the database, if youlike, of the profiles, the mzy codes, the profiles that are availableto be pushed in over the air, and the SMSR is like the switch. Yes, in our service, is the switch that says, if thisdevice is conforming, is placed in this location, then push this em Zin from the SMDP list into the device. So sounds like we sort of itnow. You and I both know we haven't put a lot of thereason. I'm sort of doing it down, if you like. A lot ofpeople again, they come to us, being a global company, and say, Oh no, no, no, I've been told by the players inthe market or whatever the the east in and SMDP and SMS are willsolve all these problems. And still eighty percent of IRT projects are failing.Right. So we know there's another GOPTUA. So let's go to the next,next chapter, if you like. Why does what you just describe notsolve all the problems you talked about previously? Well, it's a very good reasonwhy. When we look at Eastin today, you know there's a lotof devices actually enabled with Easton, but only, give or take twenty percentof those devices globally or actually using easn connectivity. And the reason is becausethe of the complexities surrounding the S MDP and the s ms are so doesthat mean it's not as simple as if I'm a customer? It's not assimple as me flicking a switch and say, okay, I want to switch tooff from operator A to operate to B, because the s MDP inss are live inside the operator's domain and normally what happens is when you switchbetween one opera turn another one, you also have to switch over to anew SMS on new SMTP, which requires some pretty heavy integration terms of Apisor a you know, feeling schedules might be different between us races going againexactly. So this process can often take months. And what a switch?It's not a switch. As as you know. People Think, Oh,I can switch OTA, so I'm on operator A. I need to goto be where the second way to second. I'm over. Or even if you'vegot your mobile phone, I have a voter phone. Send in mymobile phone. If I want to move to ee. I can get apack code and I can do but but you're saying it's a little bit moresimilar to that, because if I switch from vote phone to e I've nowgot a contract. I had a contract with votophone, I've now got acontract with the I've now got a new pricing schedule and in the case ofIOT devices, if I've API integrated my device and the data into my backend application processes, I may have different set of Apis. I've got adifferent support number to call if things go wrong. So I'm enabling a transfer, but I'm enabling the trend, I'm...

...solving the problem. This is mywords and, keeping honest, we appear to with that level of implementation.We appear to be solving the problem. For the M and O and mo a can completely move move the device to M ob and emin way isdone. But from the customer point of view, the customer now has gotto do a reintegration for M ob which, if you only had one or twodevices, okay, but if you've got a thousand devices, tenzero devices, a hundred thousand devices and you want to move them all the time tooptimize connectivity, suddenly you've created even more work for yourself as the user.Yeah, you're looking at months of work and a lot of others at work, and this is one of the reasons why when, historically with the SIMit's it's mainly been limited to automotive applications because they were able to afford thatthose kinds of costs, or at least absorb the costs, whereas other iotsegments were could just couldn't afford it exactly rewrite their systems. And Yeah,so we almost got there. It looked like we could have global connectivity,but actually, when we double clicked on it, there was our yes,but back in okay, now, this wouldn't be an SI podcast unless wesaid, but there is another way. So I know you guys. Infact, that's how we started up our business relationship and indeed the trigger forthe White Paper is that we were briefing you about about what we do andhow, specifically, we solve that problem. Okay. So, so, justfor our listeners, we do. Si does everything that Stefan has justtalked about, except the key difference, is two key differences, is thatwe actually have we run our own s MDP and SMS are in our inour cloud platform, and we interconnect with the whole series of ms so thatwe can the net effect is we can switch between ms on a global basis. So if you need localization in Turkey, we can switch you to a TurkishSam if you need localization in the US, we can switch you toverize and same, you know, the MZ Otape into ours in same forChina, etc. Etc. We got fourteen of them, but because wecontrol the we've got the abstracted SNSR and S MDP, although we're doing theswitch. From the user point of view, there is no none of these issuesthat you refer to exist because you always connected to sis platform. Youdon't have to change your Apis. You still have the same pricing we have, as we get fixed pricing, you don't. You have the same supportnumber. So so our belief is that the only way you can implement thee sin deliver on the East in promises to abstract the SMSR and the SMDP up into a high level which we call like a virtual mobile network operator, vm No, as opposed to an M v A. No, amobile virtual network operator, because mobile virtual network operators typically come from the consumerbackground and at enable the transfer from a to be but the user then hasto do all that work, that months of work that you're referring to.So we've actually created a lot of the functionality that is within the Emino inas a software layer in the cloud, which means the devices can switch andall these interfaces don't have to change, and that was the genesis of theresearch report. Your view as an independent analyst on on the that solution andwhether or not that is a step forward, not saying it's the whole answer,but a step forward in solving these issues. Yeah, I mean,like you said, when you're provider, so you're a provider who has manydifferent agreements. Will operators are around the world. So in terms of that, you're able to connect with what is...

...over seven hundred network operators, overseven hundred different networks with localization and roaming agreements, fourteen localizations and however manydifferent roaming agreement. So basically ubiquitous. Yeah, exactly. So from acoverage perspective, that's that's pretty much sorted. But the key differentiator here is,like you mentioned, the ownership of the SMDP and SMS are mean ifyou can avoid that integration costs, if you can avoid the headaches that areassociated with a switching apis or new management in terms of your business relationship,then the business case for east him becomes a lot more attractive. Right.The fact is that eesim itself is a little bit more expensive than a traditionalsin because in most cases there's more memory on the cards, it's a newertechnology and of course then you have those software components. Yeah, mation's likea it's almost like a small computer. There's an application on the card andstuffword components that exact tble these capability. Yeah, yeah, so, Imean I think companies will be able to see, okay, I can seewhy I'm paying a little more for easim from from sort of a high levelperspective, that they might not understand the the the full challenge that has goneinto it in terms of investment and complexity. Yes, perhaps made them shy away, but when you're if you're able to deliver a solution that removes alot of that complexity, then I think the idea of paying a little bitmore to receive something that's future proof and standardized by the GSM gives you aguarantee for foriet projects. We talked about how roaming is perhaps not the bestidea for long term projects. Yeah, so Hesim is it is the answerto that. But if he seems too expensive, that might stop you fromgetting into yeah, and that's why I said Stephen the I still don't thinkit's yet the holy grail because in reality it's an injuring scenario. You don'tknow in I oft back to where we started. You don't know you've you'regoing to have a problem until you've had a problem and then the second timearound you say well, I'm not going to do that again and make sureI fix that before I get started. So, yeah, of our twothousand customers are so I would say seventy eighty percent of them have come tous after a failed project. And and so, yeah, the same costsa little bit more. The service may cost a little bit more, butif that means you get ninety nine percent first time global ubiquitous connectivity out ofevery device in every country, as opposed to ninety two or ninety three percentand have to swap sims or you have to change your Apis at the backend because of because of the the e SM switching problems that we referred to, use pretty soon realize that the costs of having to do that, allthat work, or the cost of not having access to eight percent of yourdevices is many, many, many times greater than the cost of spending anotherfifty or seventy five cents on the sin. The problem is that, until youreally realize that they are going to be issues, that little extra costfor for per sim per device says, oh well, you're more expensive then. So that's why I think that we have to look at TCO, totalcost of ownership and Roy metrics, which is what the IT industry in generalhad to do, because it's about delivering a business outcome and the business outcomeis directly proportional to to the percentage of connectivity, because you really actually thedata. I'm getting data from ninety two percent of your devices, ninety twopercent of coffee, coffee machines, ninety ninety two percent of lockers, ninetytwo percent of heart monitors is not a...

...good business case as getting as nearto a hundred percent as is physically technically possible. Let's so we've made we'vemade strides and and we are definitely seeing that this is the new model.The abstracted SMR, extress extracted SMDP and EUICC enable switching into a step toprofile into any sin to get once product skew. So we're we're definitely gettingcloser at the risk of complicating a little bit more, and we won't havetime to go into this in as much detail. What about the guy whosays, okay, I get all that, but you know my coming. I'mtalking to it tells me I will don't worry about any of that becausethere's something else coming. So No, wait, this is why it's confusingfor people. Don't know. There's something out. There's always something else coming. Now, this time over the horizon comes the ice in HM. Socan we cover that on this as we're you know, you're educating people,I'm sure. So how is the ICIM fundamentally different, or isn't it towhat we just talked about? It is and it isn't. Okay, that'san easy and to so I seem basically takes the easy in concept. Butinstead of a separate SIM chip, yeah, it's it's integrated into the system onchip itself. It's firm where it's software inside silicon. He said exactlyexactly. So what that means is that you you have a smaller footprint whenyou're in your manufacturing devices. You don't even have space for for some chipanymore, which means that you don't need to pay that extra cost for theSIM. So it saves your money and also it means that your devices canbe smaller or you might actually have a room to put whatever else you oryou might want to do. It was in. It also means that ifyou're going to go now it's the SIM is going to physically disappear and it'snot going to be on the board, it's going to be phone. Whereinside the chip will the Modem then? Presumably, all the more reason whyyou need to not have lock in. You need to have a ubiquitous connectivitycapabilities, because would it if you don't have it? The remediation process isnot just change the sin, you'd have to change the whole module if youdidn't have it. Now that and yeah, modules are a lot more expensive anddifficult to change and devices than Sims are. Yeah, I mean it'sfunny you mentioned that. I'm or there are some listeners who have listened toice him and said, well on, ICEEM s not coming, it's alreadybeen commercialized. Well, actually, I se him might well have been commercializedby a few vendors, but it hasn't been standardized in the same way thatthe EU sec specification has. So right now you can't take an ice inand use that standardized framework to switch operator profiles. Will. What's happening rightnow is the GSM is working on on standardization. Then over the next twothree years or so we'll start to see commercialization of standardized ice him available onthe market and that will offer a lower costs hardware solution is easy. Okay, well, we covered Stephen. We've person of all thank you for simplifyingwhat is a very complicated environment and we covered a lot of ground. We'vewe've covered the connectivity, the complexity, the lack of adoption, the roaming, the commercial problems of roaming, the user issues, the declining price thatthe fractured, broken economic model of roaming, which leads to lack of surety goingforward, the promise of easim and e see see the reality of Easim, the importance of the SMDP, the...

SMSR, and then the idea ofan abstracted agnostic platform to solve those issues and then into yes, but westill got some more issues to come, as there are always is in theIT world. That's more issues to come with with with doing it all againin regard to the is in world. So and so hopefully in the futurewe have another podcast where we say are now, this is how we cansolve the problem in the ISIN world. But we don't need to do thatyet because there's only a certain amount of new technology that people can absorb.I think the key thing, key takeaway is that easin is needed, ubicerousconnectivity is needed. E SIM is an important part of the solution and theSMS are and the SMDP and where they are residents are really important factors totake into consideration for listeners when considering global, particularly global IOT deployment projects. Soa lot of content in this podcast. I want to thank you again.It's thank I also give a shout out to Collido your website. Soyou're a specialists in this area. This is what you do and there isthis twenty page report which goes into what we've talked about and more, ina lot more detail which is available in the meantime. Let me wrap thisup and thank our listeners. If you any of you listening, I thinkthere's a subject we should go into in more detail. This was one ofthose subjects. Of People said, can we really go into this, becauseit's complicated and there's lots of claims and counterclaims. So hopefully we clarified thingsfor you and if there's any other subjects you particularly want to go to us, please reach out to us, either to myself on Linkedin, Nick RReli of SI, e Se ye, or just reach out to us onsocial media in other ways, and we will take your inputs into account forfuture episodes. But in the meantime I'd like to thank this week's guest onthe IOT leaders podcast, Stephen Sorrow. I was chief research at Collido intelligence. Thank you, Stefan, and thank you for, as I say,taking a really complicated subject and simplifying it as much as is possible for ourlisteners. Thank you very much, and thank you to everyone else for listening. Thanks Stephan, thanks nick, take care, but by thanks for tuningin to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by SI. Our teamdelivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploydifferentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listeningto iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. OurVision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption,helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons,stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us knowhow we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks forlistening. Until next time,.

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