IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 11 months ago

The Broken Economics of Roaming w/ Steffen Sorrell

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

One of the biggest misses in the IoT industry, frankly, is that so few things are connected globally — only about 20%.

In this episode, I interview Steffen Sorrell, Chief of Research at Kaleido Intelligence, about why global connectivity is so complex.

What we talked about:

  • Reasons for connectivity complexity
  • The fractured economic model of roaming
  • The promise of eSIM versus the reality of eSIM
  • The importance of the SM-DP and SM-SR
  • An abstracted agnostic platform to solve some of these issues

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders.

You can find every episode here.

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Miss Lessons learned in innovation strategies that work. In each episode you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the latest episode of Iot leaders podcasts, the podcast that attempts to deem mystify the very complex and often confusing world of iote, and I'm absolutely delighted in this episode to welcome Stephen Sorrel. Stephen is the chief of research at Collido Intelligence. So, Stephen, welcome to the podcast. Yeah, hello, thanks for having me on neck sure you're welcome and this this week's episode is all about the e sin and we're going to really try and double click on this and demistify the sin, not just in terms of the technology but in terms of what it is, why it's needed, what problems it solves, what are the current advantages and disadvantages of it, the state of the market, where it might go in the future. But but ultimately, what are the benefits to customers in terms of deploying IOT projects of the e Sin. Now I have to say to our listeners that Collido research and Stephan in particular, have a released a twenty page research report on this that SI was involved in and that is available now. So if you're finding this absolutely fascinating, which I hope you are, don't feel the need to make a furious notes on this, because pretty much all that we cover, hopefully, is in the report and a lot more. But I'm sure, as always, will get most of opinions and views on the wider subjects as well. So the report, just so you know, would be available through SI's website and it's called the global iot connectivity through localization White Paper. You'll find that and we'll give you a lot more detailed information on this. So with that, let's get going and, as we always do on these podcast step and that special we'll get to know you as a person. So I don't know where were you born? How did you end up in a in a market research and analyst company? I was born in Eastbourne, which in the south of the UK. I've was thought of myself as a Brighton lad, though I went to college there and after university I went to live back there for a bit, a bit bit more exciting than and what do you do at university? Just as background, actually, I did a modern languages degree, which is a bit bit of a ways away from the industry I'm in now. But after I finished my degree, I started working in the FMCG sector. I became an analyst. That's fast and following consumer goods rine. So I was working for a big American company there as as an analysts, and while I was doing that I sort of got bit more interested in things like software development, so I started doing another degree remotely. I was doing this and I came across the Internet of things during this software development course and that led me to to a research house called juniper research. Let's just take it easy. You cover it a few things there. You did a degree in modern languages, Yep. Then you were working in the software field and you started doing another degree Deli was working in the FMCG FMCG, excuse me. And then the degree. I was doing a degree in my in my spare tay time. Yeah, and that led you into Iot. That got me interested in it. I first discovered about the smart home back in those days.

And Yeah, that let me to become interested in becoming a research analyst. So, and that took you to juniper. Yep. So I worked juniper research ten years or so and funny enough, I started I was covering the Iot side of the the business. So actually my first report back in the day was was on the smart home sector. So, yeah, I worked there over the years and as time passed, I think myself and a couple of colleagues who are also working at juniper felt that maybe there were some areas of markets that we were looking at that we could we could cover in more detail, go a bit deeper, really get under the skin. Juniper's pretty broad research. That's right. Yeah, that's right. They do cover a lot of lot of areas. Yeah, but I think, yeah, we wanted to do a bit, a bit more. So we then braunched off a couple of years ago and myself and to colleagues from from Juniper, we started a research home firm called Clido intelligence. So I'm I'm one of the founding members and in that we are looking at mobile roaming as well as mobile connectivity. Fed background to the PODCAST. And so with that background, that's why I said, I couldn't think of anyone better to cover this subject, which is a which is a complicated one. So let's see where can on the packet. And, you know, let's start off by first of all talking about subject that we have raised on this podcast a few times before, which is I call it what the Hell happened? Because if we go back in the back in the day, and I first started off looking at this area about two thousand and ten or so, when I was in Cisco, and we a Cisco and others like Ericson and and IBM and others, we all confidently predicted fifty billion things going to be connected. Smart home, as you say, was clearly going to be one of them, but not just small home. It was basically anything with power and IP address will be connected by now. We be here by now. Yeah, and then we now we're in two thousand and twenty one, we look back and say, well, actually, we got to eleven billion things. So we got to just over twenty percent, and I call that one of the biggest misses in the IT industry. So, from your point of view, because ultimately this is a road that's going to lead to how the Eastin and the way it's implemented can address some of these issues, but from your point of view, let's start off with what do you think are the main issues to do with why we as an industry missed so badly? I think the biggest issue is that it's not as simple as everyone thought it would be. You can't just say, Oh, look, here's my device, I can ship it anywhere in the world. If will work, it will provide me data and I'll be able to get insights from that data. It's it's nowhere near that simple. I mean you've got complexity around the hardware design for IOT projects. You know, Iot is a mismatch of of different ideas, different ends, goals, different ways to do it, which means the majority of products you can't just it's not just like an off the shelf thing, like you can't. It's not about fire me just buy off the shelf in and it works. And I think it's really that is a really key thing because we find that, you know, we we've said before, we have two thousand. I really go Iot as well, and we have two thousand customers and because it is it is amazingly common how often customers come to us who are in the IOTI business, on the project manager for an Iot project. But there is this perception that well, I can, you know, I can put a Sim into a mobile phone and it works. I kind of assumed that was a given. And I'm going to concentrate on all the other elements of Iot, particularly the application integration, the day the usage, the security. But but something is as basic as the device and the connectivity, it's difficult. I mean it's really difficult, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. I mean, when you look at the connectivity market today, I mean when you...

...have an Iot device, you can't just have one sin and say this, this thing is going to work anywhere in the world to the quality that I needed to work because of the way that the the industry is structured. It's not that simple. And the industry is structured. And look at the MNOS, the mobile network operators. The industry is structured in it's so whole series of verticals, proprietary stovepipes. I mean essentially the Mo's have a proprietary sin and that proprietary sin forces the connection onto them. It's the way the model works, which works for cell phones with some roaming and we'll get into this, but clearly does not work if the goal for Iot, if the goal is the holy Grail, is what you said, which is why couldn't I just have one sin in in a device that just connects? Yeah, and I think for all of us as in industry, we kind of a we either ignored the problem or we kind of assumed that would be possible back in two thousand and ten and now we're faced with with this issue. So so we know that connectivity is an issue. So that so let me go to the next question, which, you must guest us get asked all the time because after we say to people, you know what, is not that simple and they go well, what do you mean, and their eyes start to glaze tically the God, I didn't realize we had to do this and I don't know anything about hardware. And they say, well, can't I by a device off the shelf? Yeah, but it's not going to be optimized for the use case you know you want to solve. So it's not like the IPHONE. So then the question then becomes but surely roaming solves this, because it seems to solve it on my mobile phone. Isn't that what roaming. Never mind this e Sim stuff. I mean the first thing they say is yeah, but isn't that what roaming does? You guys are real deep experts on roaming. That's what your website says that you do. So what's what's your take on that? So you know, why doesn't roaming just sold up problem? I think first thing we have to do is is go back to how roaming was originally established. So it's a series of agreements between operators based on an understanding mostly of bilateral traffic, and these agreements were made at a time when the Internet of things, or the business model was was was made at a time when the Internet things didn't really exist. MTOM was was barely even a thing at the time. And really the idea is that, you know, we humans like to think we're special, but actually we're quite predictable in terms of how we travel, how we use our devices, and that is what the the roaming business model is about. It's about predictability in terms of okay, this number of connections or this much data is going to be used in a roaming scenario on my network for a short amount of time. You know, people don't go abroad and live there and then roam. Normally it's like three months, isn't it? Exactly on the network and then, by which time you've gone back home. Yeah, like longer than ninety days. You can consider that device as permanently roaming, which is a special use case and is actually challenging, which I think we'll probably get into a bit later. But when you have that business model transferred to machines, and we talked just now about how it it is very customized, the fact that it's bespoke from project to project. The type of use case is different from project to project, which means the data, the usage where these devices are shipped and used is is no longer predictable, and that doesn't fit the roaming business model, which is based on on that predictability. So that's one might of it in terms. So just to just just to make sure I understand that. So that is an interesting way of looking at it. If I...

...repeat it back, what you're saying is the Rome agreements will basically built out of the consumer voice. Essentially. Yeah, exactly, where there was a degree of predictability. So I'm network A and I'm going to do they'm a European M no, and I'm going to do a roaming agreement with the US? Em No, but it's because I know that I've got customers on my network in in the UK and when they go on holiday to the US or they work perhaps a few weeks there, I know that they're in the US the typically you're only in the US and then they're going to come back within ninety days. So I'll just do any greement, like a reciprocal trade agreement if you like. Yeah, between the Emino in the US. You have no will probably do similar one for American tourists coming to the UK and we'll just say we have a quota. I'll let you have a I guess it's are they structured at these Romi agreements? Are they structured around a certain number of devices and or a certain percentage of the traffic? Is that typically how they get structured? Yeah, pretty much space on a second expected volumes, but I mean the major difference is, you know, today's smartphones are all high volume data devices. So when wholesale agreements are made and those are based on traffic, then an operator can they expect a reasonable return. But then when you have an Iot device, a lot of those devices are are not consuming data. There is exactly. Yeah. So, for example, when we look at the the roaming market, when we look at the whole cell so the inbounds roaming market, in terms of revenues, over seventy percent of that market is covered by IOT devices that are using more than a hundred megabytes per month, which is a very unusual amount of data for an Iot device to be using. Normally it's normally it's less than definitely less than a hundred. In some cases maybe betain between ten megabytes or something, and the the revenues that you can get from now are very, very small in from a wholesale perspective. So in that sense, the business model to allow lots of devices to come in that don't produce a lot of data would is it's not a great one. Is You're not getting your money from the data consumption, but you're still having to cover your signaling overheads. So the IOT devices are still sending traffic of the ever signaling they for physical infrastructure, Cisco, and Justin s riches, say, or pipes. Yeah, but you're getting a percentage of a small number and as data prices drop, an Iot devices start sending proliferating and start sending, frankly, less and less data of the narrow band and help one, you're getting a percentage of a declining number your Cisco rooters and switches on coming down past accordingly. So that's presents, would you call it like a growing financial disincentive in the industry? Exactly. Yeah, I think they're seeing that fear of so we talked about how a lot of IRT devices can spend a long time in the country in contrast to humans. Yeah, and you don't know in advance that. It's not like I bought an airline taking. I'm coming back in two weeks after my holiday in Florida. Yeah, I'm making and making a hundred thousand widgets and a certain number of them, I don't know how many many will be sold in the US and will stay there. Yeah, the more devices you have out there, the lower the incentive for the operator if they're producing small amounts of data. And so the theme, the theme Stepan and and we definitely hear this. I don't think people do. I'm glad was shining a light on this because I don't think people do understand this. Is that you're describing as a as a, you know as an analyst firm that spends all their time doing this.

In fact, you even left an honest fem formed another one just specifically to go into this. It's a model which is a very to repeat, built for the consumer, initially consumer voice, but certainly the consumer market be and B is set based on a set of assumptions that are not just not a livable to white Iot but increasingly unapplicable to Iot the number of the devices. As the number of devices grows, the financial incentive and the practicality of roaming agreements drops. Yeah, and would you say that and that's only going to carry on. Nothing that you've said says that there's something coming. And certainly the will get on to easting. But if, unless you change the model, what's going to happen is roaming is is just not going to be financially worth it. Would you say for the book, for the operators? And if roaming goes away, then connectivity goes away. So would you say that this is one of the reasons why we were seeing, and certainly we're seeing this, an increasing number of roaming agreements being terminated at very short notice? Yes, so that's two elements which are two major elements which are placing pressure on the roaming market, apart from the business model. And this comes, on the one hand, from increasing operator hostility towards permanent roaming. Yeah, and that's driven, of course, by the business model, as well as emergence of things like rowing like at home in you, which takes away some of the upside on the consumer side for forms, and the seconds side for a pressure is on the part of regulators themselves, particularly in markets like China, in India, Brazil, Turkey. Even the UAE now has a specific regulation which says that business date must reside within the country. Everything you can apply a traditional roaming model. So the regulators are having a big impact on the one hand, while operators are having a big impact on the other hand. So if you're if you're in the shoes of a customer saying, okay, I want my device fleet out there, I know I want it to be out there for ten years or more. That passion for them and of surety of connectivity. I don't want to have to be someone who spends all the time monitoring roaming agreements and seeing whether they're or not and exactly exactly. I don't want to spend sixty plus months developing and testing and prototyping and deploying only to find a year later, either the regulator has decided that permanent rhyming is not available. That can happen. So roaming agreements. Roaming agreements are not financially of financial lesson, as attractive. The people don't want them. They get terminated regularly and it appears to be increasing not surprising, given it the financial incentive is getting worse and regulators are increasingly stepping up for a variety of reasons, frankly political and as well as protecting the hometown hero in the country and saying, like Turkey is a very good one. Three months and you're off, yeah, unless you put a, say, a Turk cell similar. So at this point I guess we've shown a lot of light on just, you know, one element of why we didn't get to that magic fifty billion dollar figure. I mean this is this is not a nice, easy, predictable world for people who are wanting to roll out IOT deployment. So not suppizing that some of the bigger projects, you look at that eleven billion verses the fifty. Our research shows as that mostly eleven billion was small regional projects that didn't need to go single skew globally around the world. And again you're reinforcing why that is. Because if you want to create one whigit, manufacture millions, ship it around the world and it just works, all the things that you talked about make it almost impossible. So let's pivot,...

...then, before everybody gets so depressed and they all right, and I'm not going to do Iot. I give up, because the the IOT has a wonderful opportunity to reduce costs and increase productivity, collapse supply chains, we talked a lot about in this series. So on the horizon comes he sim and and now the next thing people say is, don't worry, I know the roaming model is broken and I know my perhaps they say, I know my model realizes on roaming, but don't worry, he same. And then that takes us into EU SEC, ECM and e SEC. They're going to solve this problem. That's the latest thing is don't worry about it, we got it covered. So first of all, for people who don't know maybe just a little bit, can you just get briefly describe what the e Sim is? When we talk about what is any seem and the Ey SEC standard? What's that all about? Yeah, so e Sim is a little bit of a misnomer. Stands for embedded Sim but actually doesn't have to be embedded. Can any any sim form factor and really the the main goal of the e Sim. So there's two parts. You have the hardware site, which is the the SIM chip itself, and then you have Ey Sec, which is a software framework for remote management and remote provisioning of the SIM card. So that's what separates it from a traditional SIM card. Like you mentioned earlier, visioning, the ability to push inn in Zi and international mobile subscriber identity over the air, yeah, into the SIM as opposed to it have being hardcoded in, as it is, with a proprietary Emma exactly. So you spoke earlier about how your traditional Sim you locked into the operator. With e Sim that's no longer the case because you have this mechanism via the software platform to download a new operator profile wherever you are in the world. So well, that means is on the production line. You don't have to have different colored color coded Sim cards depending on where they're going anymore. You don't even necessarily have to know exactly where they will end up anymore, because you can te Sim contains something called a boots that profile, which is designed to initials provide us sort of a start up. Yeah, connectivity, always connect, yeah, wherever, yeah, wherever it is in the world, and then it will use that bootstrap profile to downloads or activate and an operator profile within that country. But that's that's the right one for that device exactly. So so now I feel better. I'm a user. Are Now I feel better. We we've sold all of our problems, have we? Not Quite. It's it's a little more complicated than that. An EU SEC is a plays a role. We should make sure we cover that off as well. So I get these in now I'm I'm seeing the light here. Say, okay, we have a ECM, it's got a bootstrap, it connects, but it's connecting on the wrong network. But as soon as I've got connected, I can Ota over the air push something in. That sounds that sounds good. So what's this EU sec all about? So the EU SEC is a standardized framework made by the GSMA. So they have a security accreditation scheme. Ye, so they have make sure that the production of the SIM cards is secure. With certified players, and on the software side you have certified players as well. So you have two components for Iot, called the SMDP and the SMS are, which is subscription management, data preparation, subscription management secure routing. So and these are, these are, these acronyms are going to become very important in about spoiler alert, right. Yeah, very important in about five minutes. Yeah, I'm so pay attention. So, yeah,...

...the SMDP is there to securely store operate a profiles, right, and then the SMSR is used to take that profile and download it onto the device in a secure manner. Okay, so let's lay out the table in front of us. It's sounding good. It's something like we've solved everything so far, because we know we haven't. But just for the moment, from the mess we had previously called the current state of the industry, we now have three things. We have the easing, which is essentially programmable. It's over the air programming will it has a boot strap so it will connect to can put what once in in every device now, Yep, and then localize it or push an M Z into it from a an operator that you want locally. And then you have two critical bits of functionality. The S M DP, which is the database, if you like, of the profiles, the mzy codes, the profiles that are available to be pushed in over the air, and the SMSR is like the switch. Yes, in our service, is the switch that says, if this device is conforming, is placed in this location, then push this em Z in from the SMDP list into the device. So sounds like we sort of it now. You and I both know we haven't put a lot of the reason. I'm sort of doing it down, if you like. A lot of people again, they come to us, being a global company, and say, Oh no, no, no, I've been told by the players in the market or whatever the the east in and SMDP and SMS are will solve all these problems. And still eighty percent of IRT projects are failing. Right. So we know there's another GOPTUA. So let's go to the next, next chapter, if you like. Why does what you just describe not solve all the problems you talked about previously? Well, it's a very good reason why. When we look at Eastin today, you know there's a lot of devices actually enabled with Easton, but only, give or take twenty percent of those devices globally or actually using easn connectivity. And the reason is because the of the complexities surrounding the S MDP and the s ms are so does that mean it's not as simple as if I'm a customer? It's not as simple as me flicking a switch and say, okay, I want to switch to off from operator A to operate to B, because the s MDP in ss are live inside the operator's domain and normally what happens is when you switch between one opera turn another one, you also have to switch over to a new SMS on new SMTP, which requires some pretty heavy integration terms of Apis or a you know, feeling schedules might be different between us races going again exactly. So this process can often take months. And what a switch? It's not a switch. As as you know. People Think, Oh, I can switch OTA, so I'm on operator A. I need to go to be where the second way to second. I'm over. Or even if you've got your mobile phone, I have a voter phone. Send in my mobile phone. If I want to move to ee. I can get a pack code and I can do but but you're saying it's a little bit more similar to that, because if I switch from vote phone to e I've now got a contract. I had a contract with votophone, I've now got a contract with the I've now got a new pricing schedule and in the case of IOT devices, if I've API integrated my device and the data into my back end application processes, I may have different set of Apis. I've got a different support number to call if things go wrong. So I'm enabling a transfer, but I'm enabling the trend, I'm...

...solving the problem. This is my words and, keeping honest, we appear to with that level of implementation. We appear to be solving the problem. For the M and O and m o a can completely move move the device to M ob and emin way is done. But from the customer point of view, the customer now has got to do a reintegration for M ob which, if you only had one or two devices, okay, but if you've got a thousand devices, tenzero devices, a hundred thousand devices and you want to move them all the time to optimize connectivity, suddenly you've created even more work for yourself as the user. Yeah, you're looking at months of work and a lot of others at work, and this is one of the reasons why when, historically with the SIM it's it's mainly been limited to automotive applications because they were able to afford that those kinds of costs, or at least absorb the costs, whereas other iot segments were could just couldn't afford it exactly rewrite their systems. And Yeah, so we almost got there. It looked like we could have global connectivity, but actually, when we double clicked on it, there was our yes, but back in okay, now, this wouldn't be an SI podcast unless we said, but there is another way. So I know you guys. In fact, that's how we started up our business relationship and indeed the trigger for the White Paper is that we were briefing you about about what we do and how, specifically, we solve that problem. Okay. So, so, just for our listeners, we do. Si does everything that Stefan has just talked about, except the key difference, is two key differences, is that we actually have we run our own s MDP and SMS are in our in our cloud platform, and we interconnect with the whole series of ms so that we can the net effect is we can switch between ms on a global basis. So if you need localization in Turkey, we can switch you to a Turkish Sam if you need localization in the US, we can switch you to verize and same, you know, the MZ Otape into ours in same for China, etc. Etc. We got fourteen of them, but because we control the we've got the abstracted SNSR and S MDP, although we're doing the switch. From the user point of view, there is no none of these issues that you refer to exist because you always connected to sis platform. You don't have to change your Apis. You still have the same pricing we have, as we get fixed pricing, you don't. You have the same support number. So so our belief is that the only way you can implement the e sin deliver on the East in promises to abstract the SMSR and the S MDP up into a high level which we call like a virtual mobile network operator, vm No, as opposed to an M v A. No, a mobile virtual network operator, because mobile virtual network operators typically come from the consumer background and at enable the transfer from a to be but the user then has to do all that work, that months of work that you're referring to. So we've actually created a lot of the functionality that is within the Emino in as a software layer in the cloud, which means the devices can switch and all these interfaces don't have to change, and that was the genesis of the research report. Your view as an independent analyst on on the that solution and whether or not that is a step forward, not saying it's the whole answer, but a step forward in solving these issues. Yeah, I mean, like you said, when you're provider, so you're a provider who has many different agreements. Will operators are around the world. So in terms of that, you're able to connect with what is...

...over seven hundred network operators, over seven hundred different networks with localization and roaming agreements, fourteen localizations and however many different roaming agreement. So basically ubiquitous. Yeah, exactly. So from a coverage perspective, that's that's pretty much sorted. But the key differentiator here is, like you mentioned, the ownership of the SMDP and SMS are mean if you can avoid that integration costs, if you can avoid the headaches that are associated with a switching apis or new management in terms of your business relationship, then the business case for east him becomes a lot more attractive. Right. The fact is that eesim itself is a little bit more expensive than a traditional sin because in most cases there's more memory on the cards, it's a newer technology and of course then you have those software components. Yeah, mation's like a it's almost like a small computer. There's an application on the card and stuffword components that exact tble these capability. Yeah, yeah, so, I mean I think companies will be able to see, okay, I can see why I'm paying a little more for easim from from sort of a high level perspective, that they might not understand the the the full challenge that has gone into it in terms of investment and complexity. Yes, perhaps made them shy away, but when you're if you're able to deliver a solution that removes a lot of that complexity, then I think the idea of paying a little bit more to receive something that's future proof and standardized by the GSM gives you a guarantee for foriet projects. We talked about how roaming is perhaps not the best idea for long term projects. Yeah, so Hesim is it is the answer to that. But if he seems too expensive, that might stop you from getting into yeah, and that's why I said Stephen the I still don't think it's yet the holy grail because in reality it's an injuring scenario. You don't know in I oft back to where we started. You don't know you've you're going to have a problem until you've had a problem and then the second time around you say well, I'm not going to do that again and make sure I fix that before I get started. So, yeah, of our two thousand customers are so I would say seventy eighty percent of them have come to us after a failed project. And and so, yeah, the same costs a little bit more. The service may cost a little bit more, but if that means you get ninety nine percent first time global ubiquitous connectivity out of every device in every country, as opposed to ninety two or ninety three percent and have to swap sims or you have to change your Apis at the back end because of because of the the e SM switching problems that we referred to, use pretty soon realize that the costs of having to do that, all that work, or the cost of not having access to eight percent of your devices is many, many, many times greater than the cost of spending another fifty or seventy five cents on the sin. The problem is that, until you really realize that they are going to be issues, that little extra cost for for per sim per device says, oh well, you're more expensive then. So that's why I think that we have to look at TCO, total cost of ownership and Roy metrics, which is what the IT industry in general had to do, because it's about delivering a business outcome and the business outcome is directly proportional to to the percentage of connectivity, because you really actually the data. I'm getting data from ninety two percent of your devices, ninety two percent of coffee, coffee machines, ninety ninety two percent of lockers, ninety two percent of heart monitors is not a...

...good business case as getting as near to a hundred percent as is physically technically possible. Let's so we've made we've made strides and and we are definitely seeing that this is the new model. The abstracted SMR, extress extracted SMDP and EUICC enable switching into a step to profile into any sin to get once product skew. So we're we're definitely getting closer at the risk of complicating a little bit more, and we won't have time to go into this in as much detail. What about the guy who says, okay, I get all that, but you know my coming. I'm talking to it tells me I will don't worry about any of that because there's something else coming. So No, wait, this is why it's confusing for people. Don't know. There's something out. There's always something else coming. Now, this time over the horizon comes the ice in HM. So can we cover that on this as we're you know, you're educating people, I'm sure. So how is the ICIM fundamentally different, or isn't it to what we just talked about? It is and it isn't. Okay, that's an easy and to so I seem basically takes the easy in concept. But instead of a separate SIM chip, yeah, it's it's integrated into the system on chip itself. It's firm where it's software inside silicon. He said exactly exactly. So what that means is that you you have a smaller footprint when you're in your manufacturing devices. You don't even have space for for some chip anymore, which means that you don't need to pay that extra cost for the SIM. So it saves your money and also it means that your devices can be smaller or you might actually have a room to put whatever else you or you might want to do. It was in. It also means that if you're going to go now it's the SIM is going to physically disappear and it's not going to be on the board, it's going to be phone. Where inside the chip will the Modem then? Presumably, all the more reason why you need to not have lock in. You need to have a ubiquitous connectivity capabilities, because would it if you don't have it? The remediation process is not just change the sin, you'd have to change the whole module if you didn't have it. Now that and yeah, modules are a lot more expensive and difficult to change and devices than Sims are. Yeah, I mean it's funny you mentioned that. I'm or there are some listeners who have listened to ice him and said, well on, ICEEM s not coming, it's already been commercialized. Well, actually, I se him might well have been commercialized by a few vendors, but it hasn't been standardized in the same way that the EU sec specification has. So right now you can't take an ice in and use that standardized framework to switch operator profiles. Will. What's happening right now is the GSM is working on on standardization. Then over the next two three years or so we'll start to see commercialization of standardized ice him available on the market and that will offer a lower costs hardware solution is easy. Okay, well, we covered Stephen. We've person of all thank you for simplifying what is a very complicated environment and we covered a lot of ground. We've we've covered the connectivity, the complexity, the lack of adoption, the roaming, the commercial problems of roaming, the user issues, the declining price that the fractured, broken economic model of roaming, which leads to lack of surety going forward, the promise of easim and e see see the reality of Easim, the importance of the SMDP, the...

SMSR, and then the idea of an abstracted agnostic platform to solve those issues and then into yes, but we still got some more issues to come, as there are always is in the IT world. That's more issues to come with with with doing it all again in regard to the is in world. So and so hopefully in the future we have another podcast where we say are now, this is how we can solve the problem in the ISIN world. But we don't need to do that yet because there's only a certain amount of new technology that people can absorb. I think the key thing, key takeaway is that easin is needed, ubicerous connectivity is needed. E SIM is an important part of the solution and the SMS are and the SMDP and where they are residents are really important factors to take into consideration for listeners when considering global, particularly global IOT deployment projects. So a lot of content in this podcast. I want to thank you again. It's thank I also give a shout out to Collido your website. So you're a specialists in this area. This is what you do and there is this twenty page report which goes into what we've talked about and more, in a lot more detail which is available in the meantime. Let me wrap this up and thank our listeners. If you any of you listening, I think there's a subject we should go into in more detail. This was one of those subjects. Of People said, can we really go into this, because it's complicated and there's lots of claims and counterclaims. So hopefully we clarified things for you and if there's any other subjects you particularly want to go to us, please reach out to us, either to myself on Linkedin, Nick R Reli of SI, e Se ye, or just reach out to us on social media in other ways, and we will take your inputs into account for future episodes. But in the meantime I'd like to thank this week's guest on the IOT leaders podcast, Stephen Sorrow. I was chief research at Collido intelligence. Thank you, Stefan, and thank you for, as I say, taking a really complicated subject and simplifying it as much as is possible for our listeners. Thank you very much, and thank you to everyone else for listening. Thanks Stephan, thanks nick, take care, but by thanks for tuning in to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by SI. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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