IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 5 months ago

2 Ways for Your IoT Project to Fail w/ Vernon Turner


Here’s where so many go wrong in IoT. They think all they have to do is connect the sensor, but they have no idea what’s going to happen to their data the minute they turn the sensor on.

In this episode, I interview Vernon Turner, Founder & Chief Strategist at Causeway Connections, about demystifying IoT projects for customers.

What we talked about:

  • What to do with the data you collect
  • Set a goal to save or improve by just 1%
  • Vernon’s best security advice
  • Becoming a founder in the IoT industry

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts, you can find every episode here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for IoT Leaders in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to Iot leaders, apodcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digitaltransformation, swings and misses lessons learned and innovationstrategies that work in each episode. You'll hear our conversations with topdigitization leaders on how I ate is changing the world for the better. Letiot leaders be your guide to iotete digital transformation and innovation.Let's get into the show, welcome to the IT leaders podcast withme, our host Nicher Cio of Si, and I'm delighted in this episode to introduceVernon Turner, Hello Vernon. How are you I'm good, I'm good Dick Odo yeahgood. Thank you. Thanks for being my guests today and Vernon has got a great career and hasstarted off in programming. Financial Services was atI dc the research company and the East Coast of the. U S, which is where he isnow for eighteen years, ended up a senior research fellow for I DC andactually ran the headed up. The ID C io t practice so very relevant to this job.He then went to Cisco for a while and now runs his own business. So so a verybroad view, a great contributor to this whole theme of the podcast, which isdemosion it. What's the lessons learned and how can we act as a guide to peopleas to how to successfully design and implement Iot Project? So I can't thinkof anyone who has such a broad experience as yourself. I'm setting youup here, ten for some fantastic content, but you know, let's get going. I saidin the intro that you have this varied background, maybe just to introduceyourself and give some idea to the listeners of the Sol of roles thatyou've done throughout your distinguished career. You thank you nicI've in this industry for a long time and it's interesting at the variousstages of my career. Everything has come down to the factthat it's all about the data, whether it's in the financial services andyou're, trying to figure out like a billion dollar transaction here, a wiretransfer, did it get from me to Youni or did it disappear in the network? Didit slow down? was our late issues so really really complex problems that arehard to scale when you think if they work at ids the whole idea of buildingit practice is one that we we looked at carefully and said. We need to look atevery element, all of the IT stack from semiconducting network into the cloud,because customers are going to build new solutions taking their enterpriseinfrastructure and whether they process the applications on the enterprise orin the cloud they're going to move a lot of that stuff to the edge and theedge to me it's something I have looked at for about eight years now at IC. I felt there was something goingon here that I wasn't comfortable with Nick. You know I asked cios said we'regoing to build these systems at the end of the network, we're going to takeyour applications out of the Nice warm security blanket and put them on thefactory floor or on a ship, or I don't oil. Well, what are you going to dowith that data? And I almost pulled my hair out with the answers they lookedat me to like we're. Just gonna keep it that's it, but yeah. How? Where are yougoing to keep it? What are you going to do with it, and I think you know itthat's to me- is one of the driving forces. Why I love this so much. It'slike there's so much o legacy lessons that we have learned from the enterprise that we could easilyapply to the edge, and it's this...

...learning curve or bringing everybodyalong and standing back and saying. I thought about resilience, thought aboutthe latency and not about security. Oh and you thought about what are yougoing to do with that data that you wanted to create in the beginning andwearing the network topology? It needs to be where it's at rest. I storedwhere it moves, and you know I agree with you. I would like to think:Wouldn't you that be having learned these lessons with a centralized model,the main frame which became decentralized to mines and then a verymuch decentralized with pchees, whatever that we, when it came to theedge the Iot we tell o well, we know what the model is, but but absolutelyan awful lot of people start up with it projects and just really don't knowwhat to do with the data or what data they need. And, of course the amount ofdata collected at the edge is just exponentially bigger. Isn't it becausethe nature of the edge o? It's not just your employees or your customers, we'renot talking your products. You know things so so the edge is many manytimes bigger than everything else added together in terms of possible pointswhere you could collect data which which gives a lot of challenges.Doesn't it does, it does yeah. You know whether, whether it's a billion thingsthat will get connected or whatever the number is it's going to be massive, andI think you, I think you friend, ed, really really well, becausetraditionally we have had thousands or even maybe hundreds ofthousands of end points and pits yeah. We thought they were the end. Thereactually no mid points. So what are the? What are the difficulties with with anyof the IT projects that I see? Is that no disrespect to our teenagers? If wehave teenagers or even ten your people in her is everybody thinks they that anIot project is simply get a censor and I would a connected and I stopped himright away, and I said the minute you connect that censor. Are you ready? It's almost like a race?Are you ready to know what to do with that data, and- and I owe boy makeabout that- you know the teenagers is one of our children when she, when shewas seventeen eighteen, she could easily have connected a censor of homeand then there thinking. Well, I don't a reallygood cool thing dad. You know that frigerator doors open not knowing thatthat she's opened up the whole home to the vulnerability of what's out thereon the network. The same thing happens on the industrial commercial side Nic.I asked customers and clients and said: Have you lost your marvels? I mean.Have you understood that the minute you turn this on? You know, what's going to happen toyour Dana A, and you know that that's one of our tie lines in our company.You know we talked about. We Start Your journey with with Iot, but quicklyconnect you to the bigger business outcomes, because I think not knowingwhat that data can do, for you is an issue. Let me let me give you anexample. One of the exercises that I've done to try and justify an IT projectfor for customers is Stamma can say how much improvement. Are you looking for?Are you looking for ten percent? Are you looking for twenty percent inproven on efficiency reduction of cast whatever? And- and you really don'tknow- I've shared this exercise with with manicures. They said we let's takea look at what one percent right on one percent improvement of your businessexpenses, because you're running an IT application, yeah or is weak about theO, so in other words, if, if you accept the principle that it generally the useof that data which, as you say, is a...

...hard one, but if you, if we couldcapture that data, if you could use that data and if that then translatedthrough to a business outcome that saved you just one percent of something,that's critical to your company. What could that be worth? That's what you'retalking about right, yeah, there's always the way that says. If you say tosomebody, can you save me a million dollars? You'll say no, but I can. Ican find a million ways city. One dollar, I mean that's, it's almost thesame argument. What I say is forget the ten percent ten percent, because thoseare big, audacious goals, yeah an o, let start with one percent and in manyways it's it opens up their eyes because if it could save them, onepercent of the factory floor cost. I then asked them. I said okay, so whatwas your profit last year? What was your private in the company and oftenthe one percent savings and some multinational is easily equal to ten oreven fifty percent of increased profits or sales to them? Take it a little takea little further on more your more I'll call it more sustainable. We haveseen projects were, and in the UK, for example, I I seen it last week wherethe water leakage from the water systems move builte. We learned a lotof the Romans how to build. You know water acratus and deal with it, but wedidn't figure out how to update since the Roman Times yeah to all the endsrestructure s leaking, and I did the same thing with with the in the US hereand- and I looked at the mound of water leakage, and I simply said if, if therewas it censors that could show predict and start the water linkage on theoutcome and nick it would equate to thirty percent of Ole domestic usage inthe US. Then we talked about this in other podcast and the whole point aboutgetting to the business outcome, and I'm looking at the the payback party isnot so much in selling it. You know cool gadgets with smart features, a lotof people think Oh, if I have these features, I could sell more, but that'sreally not the pay back, because, as you putty go, it's the payback is inthe optimistic of back end processes and in our own part of it. You know weprovide ubiquitous connectivity, a global cellular connectivity from aSingle Sim embedded on the board of a device, so it can go to any network andyou never have to change the same card. But the point about that in relation tothe point you just made is: What does that enable you to do? Well, it enablesyou to create a single product, skew as amanufacturing company that you can just ship all the way around the world sellthrough retail and not have to have an installer or a customer. You know inCertosa or or or change the same or anything like that, which means thatyou actually have a few escuse. You have a single skew, so, for example,Bosh is, as you were speaking. I was thinking of that. You know. Bush haverobotic law mowers, but just talking here as we come intospring in two thousand and twenty one, and you know they're ramping up theirlow, more production, but they have a single product skew and so this andthey sell it through. You know retailers in about fifty or sixtycountries. It's the same product, that's the point: it's the same product,so a d and an entirety enabled and what that means is their savings on theirmanufacturing, their supply chain, their warranty process because they cancommunicate with the device and it's always the same device. The same firmwere in the device. Those savings are absolutely enormous and absolutely dwarf the revenue actually that theycan get from selling more IOT enabled law. Bowers terse is somebody else's itenable Lomo. So I think your point is a good one. Is that one of the key thingsabout justifying an iot project which...

...he must have been involved a Lottin?Ninety Se is actually looking in the right place for the Roi and the Roi isin the optimistic of back end company processes yeah. So so you use two veryimportant points for me. One is that there has to be a time to value thatcustomers really, except we've, seen these numbers in Francisco and you'redoing studies and other other companies. That would say, eighty percent of allIOD projects fail a look at a poo concept, and the argument therefor forme is one that, when we was scooping out these projects, particularly ifyou're in the operational technology sign or any type of business, if it takes too long to implement, Iit's too difficult to get the outcome. This is where I categorize it as thetime to value. If customers don't see this down this implementation veryquickly, so they can start to read that benefit. Then you know that theseprojects were are almost dead on arrival and- and I don't think that'swell thought out of- because it was pie to the idea that anybody can do this,let's just plug it in and see what happens. I think second point: is theydon't really appreciate the difficulty of the back end processing that has tobe integrated into this? Yes and nick you and I have talked about digitaltransformation and becoming a digital company for many years now. The one thing I look atthe one thing I look at when I when I talk to Cios I asked and- and thequestion is you've an io t strategy and you have a quote quote: DigitalConformation Strategy: Are they connected? Are they insane with eachother, because I would to strategy, will expose thedata silence and the lack of transparency that customer y going towant to have when you go down in this journey become a digital company,because what happened is you'll create more and more data silos? After all,you know you now I joked about it. We've got to create data yeah now for me issue that these enterprises ofthe back and systems need to a play, sort of very underestimated role. Herewe got to make sure that there is immediate transparency between thesedivisions in the company, these groups in the company who have to have thedata and the reason. Why is very simple, we're going to move from what I call aMacan cell concept, where you make a product like the lawn more and you sellit to to you and me and that's the end of o. The relationship to a equisite ofa sense and response was the customer in the middle that it's the customersgoing to know real time. How well the Langmore is doing. Is it breaking as abroker is or not? But if it's broken the repair systems, the supply chainmanagement, predicted, maintenance, preventative maintenance field service engineering, all that hasto come together almost real time and that's a different experience. Yeahcustomers have a in your particular case, multiply, unto a global unto. A globalnetwork unto under oute acids that move around those systems have to be in sank witheach other. That's to me is a fundamental question. I SCIOS is six toFord question. If the answer is no, I'm not a very good salesman. I pack up mybag and go because I think this is going to be a failure project. This isgoing to be. This is not going to work...

...out. It's such a tough problem for a customers. Isn't it because every youdelve a bit deeper in it? You get more more advice from everyone ourselves,everybody else. You know everyone saying! Well you need to think aboutthis. You need to think about that. You know it's sort of like the IOT iceberg.It's actually almost toi the top of the Eberus, it's the IT IEB either. Itlooks great Er. If I could do that with that be cool, and then you lookunderneath and all those things are under the water line and what you'resaying is that if you don't fix those and align those triet strategy, you'reactually going to create a worst experience for your customers andthey'll hate you for it and they might never forgive. You may leave you asjust by fixing the bit above the water, but leaving the old processes that arebased on doing things in the non io t way is actually going to make theproblem worse and he has t get all this data and the customer say, but I'vetold you that you've got access to it. You know it's the old phoning the callcenter and you got a question. So I can't trans. I can't answer you I'lltransfer you, so you wait and you listen to some awful music and thensomebody says how how ever can I help you? I I yeah it's about myconversation. I've just had and this so sorry, what's your name. No, they did brief you and theytransferred the cold right and, of course, they're completely silo they'veimplemented a coal center, but all the back and systems are all completelysilent and what you suddenly realize is there's no common definition of thecustomer, and so it is a problem that we've been dealing with years, but somepeople are really getting through it and being successful. I want to go backand talk about something that you raised earlier on, which we justtouched on book, but I think listeners would want us to double click on andthat's issue the issue of security. So, let's assume for the moment that youknow you've got a project. You think you know what the one percent is worth.No, no, I think we can get ten million dollars out and we I want. I wantapproval to spend a hundred thousand dollars, giving it a go and you'veworked out your data model. You know what data stays at the edge. What datahas to be back hold or sent backwards, the METADATA? Perhaps what dates shouldbe stored? What they say doesn't doesn't get stored, so you've got yourmodel, you've got your plan and then the sea, so the chief informationsecurity officer says hold on a second. I just want to check. Are you sayingthat all these things these devices are going to have an ip address and arethey going to be secure? In other words, I his stories, you know, I don't know,I sell the winds or whatever. Whatever is people hear, these stories ofdevices with you know password on two three four or getting hacked and peopletunneling back in because they you've expanded the threat perimeter massivelywithout oft, and it was a big debate, the industry or around mobile phonescell phones. When you know you, it was bringing your own device, and I said no,I need to have a company device because I need to put security on the deviceand people talk about agent, less security that sniffers that sensewhat's there and then give you security of the devices without you having toput a piece of software on the device. The problem with it is that you can'tsee these devices because they're not wired with an Etena cable to yournetwork, they're going the connecting Vira Italicam company a SA horizon ahorizon is then connected to Mbo like us, were then taking that data wereputting it into the cloud and resenting it to the enterprise. So you can't usea sort of network sniffer so put all these devices can in theory, be compromised. Now, I'm building up toasking you a completely impossible cut sum, because we know the industryhasn't solved this, but but what is your advice in general, based on yourexperience, either either in your...

...eighteen years, an I DC in your sisterexperience or your new company Causeway Connections, which will come on to whatis your experience and advice, release what I'm saying? What is your advice topeople about how they go about that because you can't ignore it? No, andfor a long long time, every time, a C or my independent surveys, when you askcustomers, what's the most important fact and wasn't what's the most Im,what's the most important inhibitor to do in an Iot project and the ones that would would get of wouldsay, security security, so there is a there is a mind set that says yeah, butI think the issue again. I is there's this. There is something about io tthat give people in weird sense of called security, because if they saywell, it didn't cost much. I mean this. This censor was, I said, a hundred a hundred dollarsbecause I've seen some censors that are a hundred dollars. It still only ahundred dollars. If I I im a big enterprise customer, it's no a lot ofmoney. Therefore every should be okay. I think the argument is theunderestimate. The damage that to be done with a hundred dollar censorthat's connected to your network, so I think what happens is there's novalidation at the done by customers, whether by the censor themselves, yeah,especially up the shelf of the shelf products, which we've seen by the wayin Si we've seen off the shelf products. I won't name the supplier, but we'vebeen up up of the shelf products that transmit the data to certain countriesin the Far East without you knowing it, and they are available on the Internetand they're very, very cheap and there's a reason why there is firm werespy war whatever inside those devices yeah. The second is we both have somenetwork background, so the idea of creating segmentation in your net workinfrastructure is fundamentally a cable stake for anybody building havean Iot comotion so that, for example, on the factory floor, if you've got arobotic arm that revoy arm is doing certain pass. It's collecting data allday long now. The question is: Who sees that data and you want to to be able tosegment on fence fence that robot in a productive matter that says, if you're,a cocos rout for body arm, then anybody that interacts with with cokes and thebody arm are the only people that should have access to that Dana once avirus or attack ems in and if you don't, if you only have flat networks, then kiss everything good bye, because youknow your virus is just going to go everywhere and I think people forgetthe fundamentals of network security, so it should be sagement Ed. I thinkyou know the censor at the gateway into the cloud or on to the point of theonto the TECO network, but I I really really think this whole idea of takingSpann time to validate the censor and create this. This layered approach ofsecurity is the only way you can do it now. It's a pain, but I d rather havethat pain up front then trying to dig myself out of some ran somewhere orrite we which, by the time you see it they've, probably they they are, andyou might never find out. They've probably been in your network for daysby definition. By the time you see it, it's too late. You know there are soother companies, though in general, in the world of it there are somecompanies and some new models that is actually making this easier. Because mypoint earlier is that you can never catch the ball. That's bouncing downthe stairs. The it ball is exploding exponentially and we're using linearsolutions to try and solve it by trying... put a bit of code on what you'retalking about is a good word doing it the segmentation, but ultimately, whenwe get to twenty billion, things were at eleven. Today, fifty billion thingsfive hundred billion things we, you know you have to have a different model.I I'm very encouraged by what the hyper scale cloud guys are doing, which isthe idea of if your data goes to the cloud, the idea of central policymanagement deployed to the edge. So you set your policy centrally, which is,after all, what we did in the in the previous waves of innovation. You knowwe set the policy in the main frame. It was easier to control, but then we did,you know for data centers. You set the policy centrally for virtual data,centers virtual networks and deploy it automatically to the edge. Just thiscase the edge is hundreds of times bigger, but the idea of saying a simpleexample: you know anomaly: detection, behavior or configuration managementprocess policy set the policy at the center, the and then e when any deviceaccess is a DNS address that it shouldn't do so. You know this. This reLaumonier these dens addresses, or this APN or this it should only beconfigured this way and if any one changes the configuration do an alert,quarantine it flag it and fix it, and then let it back in. I think you knoweven things like that may not be enough, but certainly I think the lessons thatwe've learned over the last ten fifteen years as cloud came to the fore, isthat you have got to use software for this, and you've got to have massscalable and often these things are just not capable inside a it environment inside even the largestcompany I mean you know, I'm sure you found that when you were working in thebanks in Boston and on the East Coast that they bent a fortune on on it, butit's still hard for them, even with all that budget money doesn't solve. Thisproblem is what alone you need a different way of doing things, but Ithink you know let I, if our listeners go away with one thing, and this is mebeing selfish. Her O o way with one thing today, it'd be your comment aboutsecurity, and it would be this. This combination of of policy andsegmentation- and you think the policy one is again another undersoldattribute that the enterprise guys or the cock guys of have for years thatcustomers again don't take the OSTAP and think about like now got ten sand of these thingsinstead of just fifty. What am I o? How I going to secure these in a scalemanner that that's not going to break the bank for having to deploy so manypeople to do this, that it has to be done over on a suffering model for sure.So so thank you for bringing it up. Well, I think bring it up because itreally mentions it and I, for instance, or what with a s who are a security. IEdition Authority, even though, with as your who aren't, but you can access thesecurity tificate separately. They actually create security citification.You can program very simply your policy as a user, even if you're, not becausea lot of these people aren't in the it department the people are doing. It areactually often the people who are in the product, deportment they're,manufacturing the products or they the marketing department, so they don'tknow any about about it anyway, and so the idea that you can start your policyvery easy. If this then or it can only do this- and if it does anything else,you know quarantine stuff. Whatever the idea of security stificate, you knowgoes backwards over the network through the MBO platform get stored inside thesame itself, the securities I get and ultimately what will happen with itemseverything is going to get stored inside the silicon, and so the securitymanagement is, you know, my contention would be many others would be.

Security is going to be a serviceprovided for for us all by companies that have are a global, not regionaland B have massive scale, and I think I think the big large security companiesand he and the hyper scale cloud infra stretches are the best hope we can ofnot having multiple Sola winds or credit card hacks or or or whatever. Iwant to make sure that we give you some time to talk about what you're doingnow, because after you know, eighteen years at IDs, a spelle Sisco Company, Iknow well because, as you know, I was there for thirteen years. You've nowgot your own company, so causeway connections. Why don't we tell ourlisteners, but but that's all about pen? Well, thank you effectually. My pashionhas always been ruled deeply in data and what data can do both as a business and societaloutcoming and and what I, what I am doing right now is helping customersdecide where in the business stack, do they want to go o culturally, you havedo they have the right to play in it. An example of that is of my customersis an engineering firm that believes they have the right to move intomedical devices, market space right and we're in the middle of doing the RoyRight now, this time to value, and it's and it's interesting, because I thinkone of the hardest pieces for them to accept as cultural shift from sellingdustrial piece of equipment, with a warranty card to becoming a disalow, aseven by twenty four deport center, the medical device, andthen what happens with that? That's a big change, o the so so the answer isyou know how R Y do we move up the stack? The second one is this idea that,if we're not going to move up to stack- and we want to move up the stack,should we have to look at the adjacencies who do we partner with sothat one plus one for the customers? Actually, three, because I again I'm abig proponent of this equi system model is going to be the way that customersare going to consume services from US you, but my goal here is as a purity asthe the advisor role I mean brought in to give the outside end of opinion, andI use that were very very carefully because opinion is- and I but anybodyhasn't an opinion. But what what I'm trying to do is bank it on an thank iton t the fact that I portant vice institutions that have massive scale, heavy transaction loads,large networks to this idea of that inside I c where I became their firstresearch fellow ever in the company on Iot the idea that understanding from the silicon all theway to the enterprise of to back in is a really really long journey need tomap out carefully. So I give that outside in viewpoint yet eyes, youadvise clients on on their it projects, yeah yeah and, to be honest with you, Ido a lot of it based on all to take of work as just as opposed to justqualitative got goes back to the opinion, a kind of goes. You cause backto the idea that it's almost what we're talking about now. We should believe inthe science of pandemic of the Giddeness are saying and you so myprogramming background from from Cowal for Trana SEMBLA SASS now are I'm not,I would never say a date of scientists, but I know enough about data to be ableto help our customers make a decision.

Whether this should be a to go or no go.You know et, I ponon I'm going to think of you as the doctor Fouche it, but actually as much Freyo got to listen to thesigns. You know yeah yeah, but you know, let's give inall of that experience. Can you think of an industry. We always like to sortof end the podcast with either, who do you think doing cool stuff or whoshould we talk to in you Kay? I want to ask a different question. I V T we allknow you know if it was a baseball game having lived and worked in the US formany years. I actually think we're at the bottom of the first on it and thatwill make sense to our American listeners and everybody else. It meansin the early stages, very early stages. You Ain't seen nothing yet, and one ofthe challenges is that you know you think about crossing the chasm andJeffrey more. You know we're in the innovators early a doctors we're goingto cross the chasm and when you cross the chasm there's you know the idea ofthe bowling pen principles. Certain industries are right for innovation.They tend to go first. We talked a lot about pending machines. Definitelyhaving vending machines, medical devices, absolutely for obvious reasons:TRACKING TELEMETRY EV charging. But what else? What are the industry? Do?You think pupit might be fragmented, it might be inefficient, but what otherindustry do you think is right for Iot innovation or what are the sector I go. I have to put a mask on to answerthis question. A its Liso, don't in Jack Yourself withblatch. I'm fine, so really really good question, O Nickand what's fascinating to me is how come nobody I come to other industry.Analysts consultant adviser has seen this I'm going to give you I'm going togive you a really good opportunity here or listens to take o. take a look atthe construction industry. We have done a lot o you talk about early moversacross Hechas, we've talked about smart buildings. We talked about the wholeidea of making the thing green and what no and make it run better. I'm goingback and saying: Okay, how do we? How do we construct these things and nick in the US playing the numbersgame? It's about a one point: three trillion trillion dollar industry inthe US of which about six hundred million. Some hundred million iscommercial buildings. The rest are domestic and the reason why I thinkthis industry is ready for disruption and for innovation is a couple ofthings have happened. One is there is a natural shortage of skilled workers inthis industry, we're not sending our children to to trade schools as what weused to do to there's a significant lack of automation, yeah in thisindustry, but the good news is the technology that you and I would followwhether it be things like IOT drones, thred, printing I've actually seenthree printing in the construction industry that would low you man. Sowhat's interesting to me is there's there's a technology. An neighbors aremature enough to make a business case to an industry that doesn't understandit particularly well and back to the ecosystem. When you think when you,when you're building a large, you know multi floor tower block what the whatwhat it takes to make that thing happen, it's just enormous amount of data innomes man, a data that we don't know enough about, and it's not just aboutthe building itself. If you think about infrastructure inside the building likebe e, the elevate, the elevators of the facilities, the company, the FM thefacilities management company that manages the builder after it's beenbuilt, every single thing will be connected in those person. So let melet me give you an example of one of my... clients that I didn't early engagewith. They build. They have corner the market for the academic buildings andunion, and they were building a hundred million dollar dorm for a large IvySchool in Boston, and he said to me: They put fifteen to twenty percenteiteen. Twenty twenty million dollar set icide as contingency just in casewhether at product you know, delays whatever hegoes. If we could pick it what that was going to be, but we build models intoendor bits. If we go back to the one percent, if we could just get some justget one percent better, I mean it would be amazing. You know, so you roll upforty to six hundred six hundred million dollar business. You can see them. You see the savingright away, so the construction in face mick to me is fertile ground, for it isphotogram for a whole host of innovation, accelerators that I thinkwe're going to see because of what I mentioned: automation, skill shortages,expense, a great a great example, and I'm surethat that is absolutely going to come through and be the case, a veryfragmented industry that has an opportunity to reinvent itself arounddata, the use of data so vernon just before I I wrap up- and this has beengreat. Thank you very much. I think we could have probably made this a threetimes longer a podcast book, but I don't think about spot. I people wouldwant us to do at least in one episode if people do want to get in touch withyou, how they get in touch with you. Oh es this, the three ways- one I'm alwaysa Linkean- you know always having badger an to. I try to be sincere ontwitter. I'm not just a Tristans doing something wrong and of course you knowyou can you could email the vermin at cosby connections, causeway connections,com, great all, right! Well, listen! Let's! Let's, let's see the hope youenjoyed this episode, I certainly did and thank you to my guest Ven Interne.This is the IOT leaders podcast, where we try and bring you people one guestfor show that has got experience in different parts of it, and certainlythat was the case today and we want to get in touch with us. It's also simple.The best way is to send an email to io t leaders at SI eye com, and you canjust you know, give us feed back or you could say look. I think this is asubject. We want you to go into as you found out today and I just went intosubjects as as the conversation flowed and were very very happy to do that.You may even say I really think this person would be interesting to be onthe show or maybe you want to be on the show so get in touch. But in themeantime, thank you for listening and thank you again to my host an Interneshes thanks men. You, thanks for tuning in to Iot leaders, a podcast brought toyou by SI. Our team delivers innovative global Iot seula connectivity solutionsthat just work helping our customers deploy, differentiated experiences anddisrupt their markets. LEARN MORE AT SI com. You've been listening to io tleaders featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of iotete.Our Vision for this podcast is to feed your guide to eye of tea and digitaldisruption, helping you to plot the right rate to success. We hope to day's lessons stories.Strategies and insights have changed your vision, iotete. Let us know howwe're doing by subscribing rating reviewing and recommending US thanksfor listening until next time. I.

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