IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 1 year ago

2 Ways for Your IoT Project to Fail w/ Vernon Turner


Here’s where so many go wrong in IoT. They think all they have to do is connect the sensor, but they have no idea what’s going to happen to their data the minute they turn the sensor on.

In this episode, I interview Vernon Turner, Founder & Chief Strategist at Causeway Connections, about demystifying IoT projects for customers.

What we talked about:

  • What to do with the data you collect
  • Set a goal to save or improve by just 1%
  • Vernon’s best security advice
  • Becoming a founder in the IoT industry

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts, you can find every episode here.

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs Lessons Learned in Innovation Strategies that work. In each episode, you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the IOT leaders podcast with me, your host, nickel, CEO of Si, and I'm delighted in this episode to introduce Vernon Turner. I've Vernon. How are you? I'm good. I'm good than how you done? Yeah, good, thank you. Thanks for being my guest today. and Vernon has got a great career and has started off in programming financial services. Was it IDC, the research company and East Coast of the US, which is where he is now? For eighteen years, ended up as senior research fellow for IDC and actually ran the headed up the IDC IOT practice. So very relevant to this job. He then went to Cisco for a while and now runs his own business. So so very broad view, a great contributor to this whole theme of the podcast, which is demistifying it. What's the lessons learned and how can we act as a guide to people as to how to successfully design and implement Iot Project? So I can't think of anyone who has such a broad experience as yourself. I'm setting you up here then fur some fantastic content, but you know, let's get going. I said in the intro that you have this varied background. Maybe just to introduce yourself and give some idea to the listeners of the sort of roles that you've done throughout your distinguished career. You think you nick, I mean in this industry for a long time and it's interesting the various stages of my career everything has come down to the fact that it's all about the data, whether it's in the financial services and you're trying to figure out a billion dollar transaction here. Why are transfer did it get from me to UNICK or did it disappear in the network? Did it slow down? was related the issues? So really, really complex problems that are hard to scale when you think if they work at IDC. The whole idea of building an Iot practice is one that we we looked at carefully, said we need to look at every element of the IT stack from semiconductor network into the cloud, because customers are going to build new solutions, taking their enterprise infrastructure and whether they process the applications on the enterprise or in the cloud, they're going to move a lot of that stuff to the edge, and the edge, to me it is something I have looked at for about eight years now. IDC, I felt there was something going on here that I wasn't comfortable with. Nick, you know, I asked ceios said we're going to build these systems at the edge of the network. We're going to take your applications out of the Nice warm security blanket and put them on the factory floor or on a ship or on an oil well, what are you going to do with that data? And I almost pulled my hair out with the answers. They looked at me go like, we're just going to keep it, that's it. Yeah, how where are you going to keep it? What are you going to do with it? And I think you know, Nick, that's to me is one of the driving forces why I love this so much. It's like there's so much quote que legacy lessons that we have learned from the enterprise that we could easily apply to...

...the edge, and it's this learning curve or bringing everybody along and standing back and saying I being thought about resiliency, you thought about latency, thought about security, Oh and I just thought about what are you going to do that data that you wanted to create in the beginning and where in the network topology it needs to be, where it's at rest? I stalled, where it moves, and you know, I agree with you. I Wou'd like to think, wouldn't you, that having learned these lessons with a centralized model, the main frame, which became decentralized to mini's and then very much decentralized with PCs, phones, whatever, that we when it came to the edge, the Iot Edge, we say, oh well, we know what the model is. But, but absolutely an awful lot of people start off with Iot projects and just really don't know what to do with the data or what data they need. And of course the amount of data collected at the edge is just exponentially bigger, isn't it? Because the nature of the edge, it's not just your employees or your customers. We're not talking your products. You know things. So so the edge is many, many times bigger than everything else added together in terms of possible points where you could collect data, which which gives a lot of challenges, doesn't it? It does. Yeah, you know, whether whether it's a billion things that will get connected or whatever the numbers, it's going to be massive and I think you think you've framed it really, really well, because traditionally we have had thousands or even maybe hundreds of thounds of end points, end points. Yet we thought they were the end, but there actually now midpoints. So one of the one of the difficulties with any of the IOT projects that I see is that, no disrespect to our teenagers, we have teenagers are even tweet your people in the s everybody thinks they that an Iot project is simply get a censor and I'm going to connect it and I stop them run away. And I said, the minute you connect that sensor, are you ready, it's almost like a race. Are you ready to know what to do with that data? And and I re reme make about that. You know that the teenagers is one of our children. When she when she would one thousand, seventeen, eighteen, she could easily have connected a censor at home and then either thinking a while, I don't a really good, cool thing dad, you know, the refrigerator doors open, not knowing that that she's opened up the whole home to the vulnerabilities of what's out there on the network. The same thing happens on the industrial and commercial side. Nick, I ask customers and clients. I said, have you lost your marvels? I mean, have you understood that the minute you turn this on, do you know what's going to happen to your data? And and you know that's that's one of our taglines in our company. You know, we talked about we start your journey with with Iot, but quickly connected to the bigger business outcomes, because I think not knowing what that data can do for you is an issue. Let me, let me give you an example. One of the exercises that I've done to try and justify an IOT project for customers is to stand back and say, how am I us? Improvement Are you looking for? Are you looking for ten percent, are you looking for twenty percent, improvement on efficiency, reduction of costs, whatever, and and you really don't know. I've shared this exercise with many costomers. They said, look, let's take a look at what one percent right. What would one percent improvement of your business expenses because you're running an IOTI application, yeah, or a sweet of application. So, in other words, if if you accept the principle that Iot generally the use of that data, which, as you say, is a hard one.

But if you, if we could capture that data, if you could use that data, and if that then translated through to a business outcome that saved you just one percent of something that's critical to your company, what could that be worth? That's what you're talking about, right. Yeah, there's always the way that says if you say the somebody, can you save me a million dollars, you'll say no, but I can, I can find a million ways saving one dollar. I mean that's it's almost the same argument. What I say is forget the ten percent. tweve percent, because those are big audacious goals. Yeah, row, let's start with one percent. And in many ways it's it opens up their eyes because if Iot can save them one percent of the factory floor costs, I then ask them. I said, okay, so what was your profit last year? What was your profit in the company? And often the the one percent savings and some multinational corporations is easily equal to ten or even fifteen percent of increased profits or sales to them. Take a little take a little further on more more, I call it more sustainable. We've seen projects were and in the UK for example, as seen it last week, where the water leakage from the water systems, because we built these, we learned a lot from the Romans how to build, you know, water aquifers and deal with it, but we didn't figure out how to update them since the Roman Times. Yeah, so all the infrastructure is leaking. And I did the same thing with with the in the US here and I looked at the amount of water leakage and I simply said I if it was iot sensors that could show, predict and stop the water leakage, what the outcome and nick it would equate to third percent of all the domestic usage in the US. Then we talked about this in other podcasts and the help point about getting to the business outcome, and I'm looking at the payback for IOT is not so much in selling Iot, you know, cool gadgets with smart features. A lot of people think, Oh, if I had these features I could sell more, but that's really not the payback because, as you putting out. It's the payback is in the optimization of back end processes and in our own part of Iot, you know, we provide ubiquitous connectivity, a global stellular connectivity from a Single Sim embedded on the board of a device, so it can go to any network and you never have to change the SIM card. But the point about that, in relation to the point you just made, is what does that enable you to do? Well, it enables you to create a single product, skew as a manufacturing company, that you can just ship all the way around the world, sell through retail and not have to have an installer or a customer insert to Sam or or change the Sim or anything like that, which means that you actually have fewer skews. So we have a single skiw. So, for example, Bosh as you are speaking, I was thinking of that. You know, Bush have robotic lawnmowers, but just talking here as we come into spring in two thousand and twenty one, and you know they're ramping up their lawmower production. But they have a single product, skew, and so this and they sell it through, you know, retailers in about fifty or sixty countries. It's the same product. That's the point. It's the same product, so and it and it's IOT enabled. And what that means is they're savings on their manufacturing, their supply chain, their warranty process because they can communicate with the device and it's always the same device, the same firm wherein the device. Those savings are absolutely enormous and absolutely do war the revenue actually that they can get from selling more IOT enabled land bowers versus somebody else's IOT enable low mows. So I think your point is a good one, is that one of the key things about justifying iot project, which you must...

...have been involved a lot in new DC, is actually looking in the right place for the Roi and the Roi is in the optimization of back end company processes. Yeah, so you're raised two very important points for me. One is that there has to be a time to value that customers really accept. We've seen these numbers, even from Cisco, you're doing studies, and other other companies that would say eighty percent of all IOD projects fail loo get out of proof of concept, and the argument there for me is one that when when we're scooping out these projects, particularly if you're in the operational technology, sign or even any type of business, if it takes too long to implement, if it's too difficult to get the outcome, this is where I categorize as the time to value. If customers don't see this down this implementation very quickly so they can start to read that benefit, then you know that these projects are almost dead on arrival. And and I don't think that's well thought out of, because it because back to the idea that anybody can do this. Let's just plug it in and see what happens. Right. Think the second point is they don't really appreciate the difficulty of the back end processing that has to be integrated into this. Yes, and Nick, you and I have talked about digital transformation and becoming a digital company for many years now. The one thing I look at, the one thing I look at what when I talked to Ceios, I ask, and the question is you've and Ioti strategy and you have a, quote quote, digital transformation strategy. Are they connected? Are they in sync with each other? Because IOTI strategy will expose the data silos and the lack of transparency that customers are going to want to have when you go down this journey become a digital company, because what happen is you'll create more and more data silos. After all, you and I joked about it. We've got a great data yeah. Now, for me, issue that these enterprise systems, the back end systems, need to take a play a sort of very underestimated role here. We got to make sure that there is immediate transparency between these divisions in the company, these groups in the company, who have who have the data, and the reason why? It's very simple. We're going to move from what I call a make and sell concept, where you make a product like the lawn more and you sell it to you and me and that's the end of the relationship, to a ecosystem of a sense and response with the customer in the middle. That it's the customers going to know real time how well the lawn more is doing. Is it breaking? It is a broker, is it not? But if it's broken, the repair systems, the supply chain management, predictive maintenance, preventive maintenance, field service engineering, all that has to come together almost real time and that's a different experience. Yeah, customers have and in your particular case, multiply that onto a global onto a global network on too, under Iot assets that move around. Those systems have to be in sync with each other. That's, to me, is a fundamental question. I ask Io's is straightforward question. If the answer is no, I'm not very good salesman. I pick up my bag and go because I think this is going to be a failure project, this is going to be this is not going to work out. It's such a tough problem for customers, isn't it? Because...

...every you delve a bit deeper in Iot, you get more, more advice for everyone, ourselves, everybody else. You, you know, everyone saying, well, you need to think about this, you need to think about that. You know, it's sort of like the IOT iceberg. It's actually almost toi the top of the iceberg, but iote is the IOT iceberg either. It looks great. If I could do that with that be cool. And then you look underneath and all those things are under the waterline. And what you're saying is that if you don't fix those and align those to your Iot strategy, you're actually going to create a worst experience for your customers and they'll hate you for it and they might never forgive you, may leave you because just by fixing the bit above the water, but leaving the old processes that are based on doing things in the Non Iot way is actually going to make the problem worse. And you just get all this data and the customers say, but I've told you that you've got access to it. You know it's the old phone in the call center and you got to question. Say I can't transfer, I can't answer you. I'll transfer you. So you wait and you listen to some awful music and then somebody says hello, can I help you? So, yeah, it's about my conversation I've just had and they say sorry, what's your name now you they did brief you and they transferred the call right and of course they're completely silo they've implemented a call center, but all the backend systems are all completely siloed and what you suddenly realize is there's no common definition of the customer. And so it is a problem that we've been dealing with years, but some people are really getting through it and being successful. I want to go back and talk about something that you raised earlier on which we just touched on book, but I think listeners would want us to double click on and that's issue, the issue of security. So let's assume for the moment that you know you've got a project, you think you know what the one percent is worth. I think we can get ten million dollars out and we I want, I want approval to spend a hundred thousand dollars giving it a go. And you've worked out your data model. You know what data stays at the edge, what data has to be back hold or sent backwards, the metadata perhaps, what Datas should be stored, what data doesn't doesn't get stored. So you've got your model, you've got your plan. And then the sea. So the chief information security officer says, hold on a second, I just want to check. Are you saying that all these things, these devices, are going to have an ip address and are they going to be secure? In other words, I hear stories, you know, I don't know sell the winds or whatever it, whatever it is. People hear these stories of devices with, you know, password on two, three four or getting hacked and people tunneling back in because the you've expanded the threat perimeter massively with ift, and it was a big debate the industry, but around mobile phones, cell phones, when you know you it was bring your own device and say none, I need to have a company device because I need to put security on the device. And people talk about a gentless security that sniffers, that sense what's there and then give you security of the devices without you having to put a piece of software on the device. The problem with Iot is that you can't see these devices because they're not wired with an Ethernet cable to your network. They're going, they're connecting via telecom company, a say verizon. Verizon is then connected to ENV and no, like us, we're then taking that data, we're putting it into the cloud and were sending it to the enterprise. So you can't use a sort of network sniffer say put all these devices can in theory, be compromised. Now I'm building up to asking you a completely impossible question, because we know the industry hasn't solved this. But but what is your advice in general, based on your experience, either either in your eighteen years at...

IDC, in your Cisco Experience, or your new company causeway connections, which will come on too. What is your experience and advice? Really is what I'm saying. What is your advice to people about how they go about that, because you can't ignore it. No, and from for a long, long time, every time I did see or your independent surveys, when you ask customers what's the most important fact or what's what's the most imp what's the most important inhibitor to do in an Iot project, and the ones that were would get that would say security, security. So there is a there is a mindset that says yeah, but I think the issue again is there's this there is something about Iot that give people and weird sense of all security because they say, well, it didn't cost much. I mean this this sensor was, I'll say a hundred, a hundred dollars, because I've seen some sensors are a hundred dollars. It's still only a hundred dollars. If I've found a big enterprise customer, it's not a lot of money. Therefore, having should be okay. I think the argument is the underestimate the damage that can be done with a hundred dollar sensor that's connected to your network. So I think what happens is there's no validation at the done by customers want to buy the censer of themselves. Yeah, especially on the shelf of the shell products, which we've seen, by the way, in Si we've seen off the shelf products. I won't name the supplier, but we've seen off the shelf products that transmit the data to certain countries in the Far East without you knowing it, and they are available on the on the Internet, and they're very, very cheap, and there's a reason why there is foamware, spyware, whatever inside those devices. Yeah, the second is, and we must have some network background. So the idea of creating segmentation in your network infrastructure is fundamentally a a cable steak for anybody building out an Iot solution so that, for example, on the factory floor, if you've got a robotic arm, that robotic arm is doing certain tasks, it's collecting data all day long. Now question is, who sees that data? And you wanted to be able to segment on fence fans that robot in a productive manner. That says if you're a CUCKOO's robot robotic arm, then anybody that interacts with with Cuckos and robody arm are the only people that should have access to that data. Once a virus or attack comes in. And if you don't, if you only have flat networks, then kiss everything goodbye because your virus is just going to go everywhere and I think people forget the fundamentals of network security. So it should be segmented. I think you know the sensor at the gateway into the cloud or onto the onto the on the TELECO network. But I I really, really think this whole idea of take it spending time to validate the sensor and create this this layered approach of security is the only way you can do it. Now it's a pain, but I'd rather have that pain up front then trying to dig myself out of some ransomware or right when you which by the time you see it, they probably they who they are and you might never find out. They probably been in your network for days. By definition, by the time you see it it's too late. You know, there are some other companies, though. In general, in the world of Iot there are some companies and some new models. That is actually making this easier, because my point earlier is that you can never catch the ball that's bouncing downstairs. The IOT ball is exploding exponentially and we're using linear solutions to try and solve it by trying to put a bit of code on what you're...

...talking about. Is a good way of doing at the segmentation. But ultimately, when we get to twenty billion things, where eleven today, fifty billion things, five hundred billion things, we know you have to have a different model that I'm very encouraged by what the hyperscale cloud guys are doing, which is the idea of if your data goes to the cloud, the idea of central policy management deployed the edge. So you set your policy centrally, which is, after all, what we did in the in the previous waves of innovation. You know, we set the policy in the mainframe. It is easier to control, but then we did, you know, for data centers. You set the policy centrally for virtual data centers, virtual networks, and deploy it automatically to the edge. Just this case the edge is hundreds of times bigger. But the idea of saying simple example, you know, a nomally detection behavior or configuration management process policy, set the policy at the center the and then when any device access is a DNS address that it shouldn't do. So you know this, this lawmoer, should only access these DNS addresses or this APN or this is should only be configured this way and if anyone changes the configuration, doing alert, quarantine it, flag it and fix it and then let it back in. I think, you know, even things like that may not be enough, but certainly I think the lessons that we've learned over the last ten, fifteen years as cloud came to the for is that you have got to use software for this and you've got to have mass scalability and often these things are just not capable inside a ity environment, inside even the largest company. I mean, you know, I'm sure you found that when you were working in the banks in Boston on the east coast, that they's been a fortune on on on it, but it's still hard for them even with all that budget money doesn't solve this problem. Is what alone. You need a different way of doing things. But I think, you know, make if our listeners go away with one thing, and this is really in Selfishue the way, one thing today it would be your comment about security, and it would be this this combination of of policy and segmentation. And I think the policy one is again another under soul attribute that the enterprise guys or the cloud guys. I've had four years that customers again don't take the don't start and think about now. Go tenzero. These things sort of fifty. What am I how am I going to secure these in the scalable manner that that's not going to break the bank for having to deploy so many people to do this, that it has to be done on the software model for sure. So so thank you for bringing it up. Well, I think bring it up because everybody mentions it. And in for instance, are what we a WS, who are a security stificate issuing authority, or even though with the Azure, who aren't, but you can access a security certificate separately. They actually create the security certificate. You can program very simply your policy as a user, even if you're not, because a lot of these people aren't in the IT department. The people are doing Iot are actually often the people who are in the product department, they're manufacturing the products or the the marketing department. So they they don't know any about about it anyway. And so the idea that you can set your policy very easy. If this then or the it can only do this and it does anything else, you know, quarantine stock, whatever. The idea of security certificate, you know goes backwards over the network through the Mbino platform, gets stored inside the same itself, the Securities and ultimately what will happen with isems everything's going to get stored inside the silicon and so the security management is you know, my contention would be, many others would be security is going to be a service provided...

...for for us all by companies that have are a global, not regional, and be have massive scale and I think, I think the big large security companies and the and the hyperscale cloud infrastructures are the best hope we can of not having multiple solar wins or credit card hacks or or whatever. I want to make sure that we give you some time to talk about what you're doing now because after eighteen years at IDC, a spell at Cisco, company I know well because, as you know, I was there for thirteen years. You've now got your own company. So causeway connections. Why don't we tell our listeners? But that's all about been we thank you. Thank you, nick. My Passion has always been uned deeply in data and what data can do, both as a business and societal outcome. And and what I what I am doing right now is helping customers the side. Where in the business stack do they want to go? Culturally? Do how do they have the right to play in Iot and example that is my customers is an engineering firm believes they have the right to move into medical devices market space. Right and we're in the middle of doing the Roy Right now. This is time to value and it's and it's interesting because I think one of the hardest pieces for them to accept is the cultural shift from selling industrial piece of equipment with a warranty card to the becoming a digital company with a seven by twenty four support center medical device and then what happens with that? That's a big chance. So so the answer is, you know, how do we do? We move up the stack. The second one is this idea that if we're not going to move up the stack and we want to move up the stack, should be had to be look at the adjacencies. Who Do we partner with so that one plus one for the customers actually three, because I again I'm a big proponent of this ecosystem model. is going to be the way that customers are going to consume services from us, from you. But my goal here is as as purely as the advisor role, I mean brought in to give the outside in opinion, and I use that we're very, very carefully, because opinion is any but anybody has an opinion. But what I'm what I'm trying to do, is bank it on the Pun Bank it on the fact that I worked in finance institutions that have massive scale, heavy transaction loads, large networks, to this idea that inside IDC, where I became their first research fellow ever in the company on Iot, the idea that understanding from the silicon all the way to the enterprise at the back end is a really, really long journey you to map out carefully. So I give that outside in viewpoint's eyes. You advise clients on their IOT projects. Yeah, and to be honest with you, I do a lot of it based on quantitative work as just as opposed to just qualitative. That us back to the opinion and kind of goes because back to the idea that it's almost what we're talking about now. We should believe in the science of endemics or the data scientists are saying, and you so. My programming background from coobal for trying Assembler SASS now are I'm not I would never say I'm a data scientist, but I know enough about data to be able to help the car customers regulcision whether this should be a go or no go. You know, vetter for now,...

...and I'm going to think of you as that, the Dr Fouchi of Iot, but actually so much farther there. You gonna Listen to the science, you know, yeah, yeah, but you know, let's. Given all of that experience, can you think of a an industry? We always like to sort of end the podcast with iether. Who Do you think's doing cool stuff or who should we talked to? In your case, I want to ask a different question, Iot. We all know. You know if it was a baseball game. Having lived and worked in the US for many years, I actually think we're at the bottom of the first on Iot, and I'll make sense to our American listeners and everybody else. It means in the early stages, very early stages, you ain't seen nothing yet, and one of the challenges is that, you know, if you think about crossing the chasm, and Jeffrey Moore, you know we're in the innovators, earlier doctors. We're going to cross the chasm and when you cross the chasm. As you know, the idea of the bowling pin principle. Certain industries are ripe for innovation. They tend to go first. We talked a lot about vending machines. Definitely happening. Vending machines, medical devices, absolutely, for obvious reasons. Tracking, telemetry, EV charging. But what else? Whether the industry do you think? Perhaps it might be fragmented, it might be inefficient, but what other industry do you think is ripe for Iot Innovation? Or what are the sector I have to put a mask on to answer this question. So you should don't inject yourself with bleach. I'm fine. So really, really good question make. And what's fascinating to me is how come nobody, I come to other industry and consultant, advisor has seen this. I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a really good opportunity or listeners, to take a take a look at the construction industry. We've done a lot. You talk a early movers across the chasm. We've talked about smart buildings, we've talked about the whole idea of making the thing green and want and make it run better. I'm going back and saying okay, how do we? How we construct these things? And Nick in the US, playing the numbers game, it's about a one point three trillion, trillion dollar industry. In the US of it's about six hundred million. Some of the million is commercial buildings, the rest are domestic. And the reason why I think this industry is ready for disruption and for innovation is a couple things have happened. One is there's a natural shortage of skilled workers in this industry. We're not sending our children to trade schools, is what used to do to there's a significant lack of automation yet in this industry. But the good news is the technology that you and I would follow, whether it be things like IOT drones, D printing. I've actually seen three printing in the construction industry. That would blow your man. So what's interesting to me is there's there's a technology enablers are mature enough to make a business case to an industry that doesn't understand it particularly well. and Go back to the ecosystem. When you think when you when you're building a large multi floor power block, what the what that? What it takes to make that thing happen? It's just enormous amount of data, enormous men of data that we don't know enough about. And it's not just about the building itself. If you think about the structure inside the building, like the the elevate, the elevators of the facilities, the company, the FIM, the facilities management company that manages the building after it's been built, every single thing will be connected in those pres so let me let me give you an example of one of my clients that I...

...did an early engagement with. They build, they have corners and market for the academic buildings in union and they were building a hundred million dollar dorm for a large Ivy School in Boston and he said to me they put fifteen to twenty percent, fifteen to twenty twenty million dollars set aside as contingency just in case whether bad product, you know, delays whatever he goes. If we could predict what that was going to be when we build models into into our bids, if we go back to the one percent, if we could just get some just get one said better, I mean it would be amazing, you know. So you roll up forward in a six hundred, six hundred million dollar business, you can see that you can see the saving run away. So the construction industry, it to me, is fertile ground for Iot. It's program for a whole host of innovation accelerators that I think we're going to see because of what I mentioned, automation, skill shortages, expense. Great great a great example and I'm sure that that is absolutely going to come true and be the case. A very fragmented industry that has an opportunity to reinvent itself around data the use of data. So learnon just before I wrap up, and this has been great. Thank you very much. I think we could have probably made this a three times longer podcast, but I don't think that's what people would want us to do, at least in one episode. If people do want to get in touch with you, I only get in touch with you. Oh easy, there's there's three ways. One of them always in Linkedin. You know, I always having better on to I try to be sincere on twitter. I'm not just a try starker on twitter. You I was doing something wrong, and of course you can. You can email me at Vernon at cause week CONNECTIONSCOM, causeway CONNECTIONSCOM. Great, all right, well, listen with let's let's let's see the hope you enjoyed this episode. I certainly did, and thank you to my guest Vernon Turner. This is the IOT leaders podcast where we try and bring you people, one guest per show, that has got experience in different parts of Iot and certainly that was the case today. You want to get in touch with us it. It's also simple. The best way is to send an email to Iot leaders at Sie Seyecom and you can just, you know, give us feedback. All you could say. Look, I think this is a subject we want you to go into, as you found out today, and I just went into subjects as the as the conversation float, and we're very, very happy to do that. You may even say, I really think this person would be interesting to be on the show, or maybe you want to be on the show, so get in touch, but in the meantime, thank you for listening and thank you again to my host phone and turn Chiz. Thanks, poning. Okay, thanks for tuning in to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by SI. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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