IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 1 year ago

The Hype Cycle & Why It Matters for IoT w/ Leonard Lee

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Have you ever noticed that every promising new technology gets massive hype… only to disappear, often for years, before it actually starts changing the world?

To understand why, you need to understand the IoT technology hype cycle.

And once you do, you’ll see IoT in a completely different light.

In this episode, we speak with Leonard Lee, Managing Director and Founder of Next Curve, who explains what the hype cycle is and what it means for IoT.

We discuss:

  • The stages of the hype cycle
  • How organizations can find opportunities in every stage of the hype cycle
  • Why IoT is in the “Trough of Disillusionment” — and why that’s not necessarily a bad thing

This discussion with Leonard Lee was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, you can find every episode here.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for IoT Leaders in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs Lessons Learned in Innovation Strategies that work. In each episode, you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the IOT leaders podcast, and in this episode we're going to have a very interesting guy with an amazing CV. I'm going to come back to that in a minute, but let's just say he spent significant time in some industry, large industry, analyst research companies, and also as a sort of Entrepreneuri, is own right now advising people around many subjects, including Iot. So so, Leonard, first of all, welcome to the IOT leaders podcast. Thank you so much. It's pleasure to be here. Yeah, and, as a remind us for everyone, managed nickel and the CEO of Si. So let's get started. Let it. I'm I have to smile because I'm actually looking on my screen, at least the at your linkedin profile. Now, it's not every day you find somebody that the description on their profile says tech into tree analysts and strategy consultants. Okay, solution architect, okay, innovation coach, okay, start up and board advisor, and then trekky and musician. So so that's pretty varied. And then later on, when you scroll down, what you actually see, of course, is that you then spend time in a publisher, IDG and CIO magazine contributor, as well as quite a bit of time as a managing partner in Gartner. So pretty broad, pretty broad background. I seem to have daubled in quite a few things. Yeah, and if you're described by background, that's exactly how you would describe. It's very diverse and it's reflective of just my interest. I'm just the extremely curious person. And going back to the trekky in the musician bit that you cited, I thought it was just a creative way of saying futurist and just the innovative, creative guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so, yeah, and the whole treky reference is simply because of today. Were, you know, gene roddenberry's vision of the future. We've realized probably about seventy percent of it right. I mean we have FRY borders we have. Yes, we do have phasers, believe it or not. And then, you know, the only thing we're missing, I think, our warp engines. So who knows? Who knows as well, get Elan. Elon would probably say it's a fairly simple problem. And at he's got one working in the lab. N But but anyway, you know, it's interesting you say that because when I teleporting and everything, and when I was when I was at HP, actually twenty years ago, our Joel Burnbam was a famous ahead of R D for HP. He was demonstrating three dimensional holographic telepresence, so where you could actually see a predimensional shape. And that was like nineteen one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. And and then was it the the killers or whatever? Then started using events on stage and whatever. But still not, I think, the technically possible, but the price not there and that's not we're going to talk about on this podcast. We got we got a narrow this down. Otherwise, yeah, let's let's beat ourselves down, not up Downto Planet Earth, and let's let's talk about Iot and you know, I'm going to start with the gardener thing and one of the...

...things on this podcast series always been. You know, we said it was going to promise so much, and you know what, or why hasn't it truly delivered yet? And and we've always said, you know, this is to de mystify Iot. It's the complexity. But you we can actually met we you've actually created help create a sort of way of a metric the measuring it, which is the the Iot hype cycle, and and so so fassable. Just before cases, anybody listening it doesn't know what the D is. Pretty famous thing, the Iot high cycle, Gartenent, you just maybe describe what it is and then we'll talk about where Iot currently is, which is which is got an amusing story. Yeah, sure. Well, first off, I didn't create a gardener, some brilliant individual I gardener did, and it's just really cool framework for characterizing the progress and maturity of technology as it goes through, you know, this cycle of hype and d hyping, I guess, is what you can call it, before it actually gets to this practical state where it's delivering value to to humanity, the economy or what have you. And it really starts off with what's called the technology trigger phase, where you have all these emerging and NAS and technologies, maybe even sciences that are that are at the very beginning stages of becoming commercialized, right. And so what happens is is that these these technologies go up this hype curve right and reach this peak of inflated expectation. So I guess it's recent examples are things like g in fact, that could be probably the perfect example. And past two three years it's coming to the mainstream in terms of media attention and and just government attention to amongst governments. And you know, it's kind of reached the peak. And then what happens is that, you know, eventually the ground tooths start to you know, the become exposed, and that then happens is that the expectations of the technology start to go down toward what it's called the trough of disillusionment, where all these hyped expectations are not met in reality or even in the near term, and then everyone's kind of disappointed and and then it but eventually there's actually, yeah, some just hop folks who really understand what the state of the technology is, what can actually be done with the technology, that start to figure out some practical and valuable applications of technology. And then next thing you know we're starting to get out of that drough and we reach what's called a plateau of productivity, right slope and enlightenment, because before that you have a slope of enlightenment where your starting to figure it out. Right, you have those market figuring out, and then you reach this plate of productivity where now you reap the benefits of the technology, but everybody, everybody then, and that's where you start getting that adoption right, right, right, and then you have the massive option. So that's what the hype cycle was. It's actually pretty brilliant and they have an army of analysts at Gartner that create hide cycles for a wide range of different seven of what you would call the technology universe, and it's fun stuff. It's and it's interesting when you look back over time, like any snapshot, sometimes...

...it has more context when you look at it over year. So, by the way, just as you talked, I did a quick Google on by G. by G is absolutely perched at the top of the hype cycle. So it is gartner currently got it right at them. I'm sure we'll come back to that. And then I started googling two thousand and thirteen, because for Iot, and prior to that I think they was called M to M and write. And then and it started. It was. It's just perfect. The DOTS almost of you put the charts together and ran them as a small video, it would make a lovely, beautiful film. The DOTS started from two thousand and thirteen, you know, like one of those paper things where you flick the paper and yeah, yeah, the duck climbed right up to the top of the expectations. The peak, I think, was about three four years ago. And where it is right now, and I didn't know this before until just about ten minutes before we started recording this, it is now absolutely perfectly at the bottom of of the trough of dissolusion and in fact, in the current guard the slide, at least the one that I found, it is the single worst one of all the technologies. So so we are really sorry to hear that. I take that, you know, I take that as a positive thing. You got to try and find positives in anything. I take that as a positive thing because the whole purpose of the IOT leaders podcast was to de mystify and say what are the complexities? What's it going to take to be a winner. And if there ever was a time to have a podcast looking at Iot, Oh yeah, we can now say got their agree that this is really, really needed. I mean this thing is about as low as it can go. I don't know whether there's anything lower than that, but the only ways up. So yeah, and slope of enlightenment. We need enlightened people to now make you know, I'll find it where the pot of gold is for Iot Right, and where the promises. So yeah, I think this is the perfect time. I think it's okay. So let's let's let's let's talk about that at least, and let's at least shine a light on on where the gold might be. And you know, they're clearly companies out there that are doing it successfully, but there's been a lot of experimentation so far. It's we're not clearly not at the mass adoption phase, but at the same time there's been a lot of technology advancements that are starting to take some of the friction the frequent way. And Yeah, you know, in our case it would be looking at the how to make the devices predictable and how to have ubiquitous connectivity and interoperability between the players, but as someone in in what are we just talk to me about your current company that you formed and need a run because you're getting advice to a lot of people in in this other areas as well on you. So maybe it just expecting what you're currently doing. Yeah, so, as you'd mentioned, I was with Gartner for a time and I realize during my tenure there that some of the leading companies, technology companies, their key requirement and need was to understand where are things going, where should they place their bets? How do they qualify these new market opportunities that may be forming or are forming at the INTERSECTI. Of all these different transformative technologies that are kind of now coming together very rapidly, and so that's that was one of the that revelations what brought me to start next herbs, and that our mission is really to be a research advisory firm that takes a cross domain approach to research and and really specifically look at some of these emerging market opportunities and areas...

...in supporting our clients. And so, you know, we're looking at some of these key focus areas of the day, topics such as you know, industrial iot. More specifically, these applications related to ultra low latency, reliable wireless networks. So if you want to think about it as IOT P G, it's one of the areas that we're looking at. We're looking at the open ran movement. This this hot topic of Djure in the Telco Industry. We're looking at, you know, edge cloud computing and it's impact on computer a future computing models, private cell your networks and security and trusts another big area that we're looking at. So we're looking at a number of different domains because we think some of the big opportunities require you to really have a holistic view, a lens that you applied to in order to see the opportunities and and gain some clarity on where things are going. So that that's that's next curve. Okay. So would it be fair to say then, that because you covered a five or six, amongst many others, emerging technologies, many of those are actually climbing the because they're pretty new. So you always have the issue of well, if they climb the curve, they have to come down the curve and then they have to rise the curve and you know that can take different times. Sometimes it can be quick, but often it's it's it's a three per year journey. So so what it be fair to say that what you're saying is that, if you're a customer trying to think, how do I take it? This clearly something here. It's clearly the potential for putting these technologies together and changing the customer experience and changing the competitive dynamic of my company and lowering costs creating whole new markets is huge. But I think what you're saying then, is that but you really have to understand what's coming to actually plan how you're going to start moving, because it's just, I guess I think so quick, right, right, exactly. And you also have to know, like I was saying in the beginning, the state of the technology. And so I have this this term that are the saying that I oftentimes share my clients is, you know, when they ask me what is next curve do is like, well, we try to help flatten the hype curve or the hype cycle, so as the hype is going up, we help you understand what's the bill state to the trade altogy? Yeah, right, and so that you're not getting on on the wrong side of the hype cycle and when it and things are coming down. You don't you don't get caught to lunch on the down side of things. So you know you're basically honing on in on the the plateau of Produsta, because it is like right, was the was the the line that the building built and go down the Middle Right, without guilt serating one way, right, because there's always opportunities through the whole continuum of the hype cycle. The thing is is that as a company, you need to know where to focus right and and where the value is and each stage, and it's going to be different as you go from let's say the trigger phase, where you know a lot of times the opportunities are going to be. They have to generate high value because the technology is typically expensive at that point, not economical, if for most applications, but further down the line, when you get to the the the plateau of productivity, that economics are much better. So I don't have a wider range of applications that you can consider. So those are the types of things that we try to help our clients with and that requires you to have now increasingly a broader understanding, as well as a deep understanding of how these...

...technologies are evolving, where their states are any given point in time. So yeah, it's tricky stuff, it is. And of course the whole dynamic of the IT industry and the venture capital model is that the number of technical the technologies themselves are emerging quicker, they're fragmenting into subtechnologies and they are and they are being refined and updated quicker. And so this is not a I'll take a look and then for six months I'll put my head down and implement process. Right, you got to be scanning, I guess right, instantly. And they're all coming together too, at an increasingly rapid rate, which makes things even trickier. Right. So, if I'm a client of yours, but I actually have added another fourth one to what I just said, and some of them, not all of them, will make it, some of them will just flare out the IT Indus. She says that, but that's okay. That was Beshon one. We're on too version too, but you've not built a product or offering and you're now down a blind alley. So yeah, so if I'm a client of yours, what do you do? Do you sort of do a is this like a regular subscription service where I keep on checking in with you and am I doing the right thing? What do you think about this? With this be applicable? Is it? Is it that sort of a yeah, actually approach. It's a consultative type thing. You know, we typically published are our thought leadership pieces and our analysis on our research log but you know, the stuff that we do is very specific for a client. You know, you can't scale the stuff out that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and and so the work that we end up doing is very advisory and in intimate of you, if you will, and specific to a client's needs. But one of the things that we try to do is we publish pieces publicly, and would that no charge, just simply so that we can help people understand some of the basic trends that are are affecting the markets as well as the technologies today. Let's try and go deeper on one of them you mentioned, or maybe one or two any other time we have you mentioned. Let's let's do it to let's start off with the one at the top, at the peak right now. It's got the best view from the top of the mountain. G and yeah, I was trying to somebody that regularly talk to people about this. They say, you know, if I either I read the the press or the blogs or the anything about this conference, it virtual conferences by Gfi G, five Gfig and yet I can never really find anybody who's implemented it and can actually say this is what it did for me. So so. And then, you know, from our perspective, people are skills about do you do five gene? We say we you know, yes, we do, or platform that we do. All of the run Rio access network technology is from narrow Banda. Yeah, I know, I'm getting emails on, you know, six g conferences. Oh yeah, yeah, it comes here, it comes. I don't know whether they're real or that's just somebody fishing. But, but, but the point is that the you know, it's just simple stuff, like we say, well, you do realize that the it's a whole new device. I mean simple stuff, like you you know, it's a whole new mode and module in the device and then really expensive. And then you see the adverts and it says, you know, we're the first cellular Pham with Fi g coverage. Like here in the UK we have e network and five GE coverage. And Yeah, they got five g coverage in a really small area, right, and so you kind of as long as you're standing in that area, you've got five g and then they'll build it out. So so what advice would you if I was a client and I...

...said to you, I really think five Geez. Do they come to you with the technology or do they come to you with a business problem? They really do. That's a good one. They usually come with the technology. As I was thinking, that's what they did. Yeah, wrong, that's that's like just like your prospects in your clients. They yeah, they come with the technology and they often then have they then I back them up into well, what's the problem that you're trying to solve? What is it that you're trying to do? What are you trying to go to market with? And in something like g even, and I think this is the problem that Iot shares. Five GM itself is such a complex technology topic. You know, there's so many layers. Do it right and there's it means different things to different audiences. It's immensely complex, and same with Iot. Iot is becoming increasingly complex because we keep throwing all kinds of stuff at it and including all kinds of technologies in it and it's becoming overloaded. Right. So the confusion only grows in and there's a huge, deep need for enlightenment. And G is the same thing. And I mean I typically tell a lot of my clients, look, you know, G is probably not what you need to worry about right now, especially if it's the end user client. You know, enterprise is like, what what is it you're trying to do and how does wireless connectivity fit in and enabling some of the key things that you're trying to accomplish or the you know, or the problems that you're trying to solve? And you know, the bottom line is, in many instances the it boils down to this, especially in an industrial wired makes sense. There's no need for wireless. So okay, checked out off, I g totally irrelevant, Wi fi even mostly irrelevant, but in others it makes sense. But how do you how do you start with the problem that you're trying to solve or the innovation that you're trying to institute and the work your way into into selecting and considering the appropriate technologies and and so yeah, that, I mean, that's typically how the scenarios that I get into and, yeah, they play out and I think it's it was always true that that's been a truism in my you know, I mean forty years in it. I started very young, clearly, but and I've heard that comment in different forms pretty much every year for forty years. Yeah, and and you start thinking, okay, it's clearly not gone away and it's therefore it probably won't ever go away. So why does it keep on coming at it? And I think that part of it might. This is my own nickel theory. It's almost an aggregation of responsibility by senior management in that in that if you actually think it's a technology project, it's a technology project. So you give it to the Teke. He's right. And you know, in this case it cascades down to well, what is it? It's, you know, five gees pretty heart. You know the CEO is heard about it or it's been to a conference, and so we need to look at it because it's hotly your Ai Block Chaine, which are five g strategy. Yeah, what's your five g strategy? It's like roll and the answer to ignore it for as long as possible. There's not a good answer, but anyway. So then it gets and then, therefore, it just takes a life on its own. It gets born as a five g project. But the real question is,...

...what if you could, if you could create a new experience? It's the imagineering, the part of the process where if you could create a new experience, that would, you know, the Moon Shot Project type approach where you could completely change the dynamic in the industry. You could disrupt, you could you could offer an hitherto. It is already apple approach. You know the I re watched the other day. I probably watched it about seven times. I re watched the Steve Jobs on stage at the flints center the launch of the iphone and gasps from the audience when he he does the pinch where he shows that he says watch this. It does the pen the audience, you know, and it's because no one ever knew they needed it and from that second on everybody has to have it. I mean I'd have to have that. Never might all the other stuff. The IPHONE. I have to have that so I can do that on my photos and and so. But the idea of if you could create something that would be incredible, that would change the dynamic. That will be really cool and actually would take you either significant reduce you carsand or give you a massive competitive advantage. Then what would that be? That's an imagineering white board session with a whole series of people, of which, arguably, the technology guys almost not needed at that phase because you're more into the marketing guys, the sames is, the outside agencies and the and then you get into okay, you got three ideas. Which one's the best one? And is it? Are they possible? And it and and if they're possible, how? And what's the Technolo? And then eventually you get to do any five G in this case. Yeah, but it is, I would say. You know, we have two thousand customers. I would say ninety five percent of them come to us. The other way round. I've decided to do cellular. I got a narrowband project for GE. I've it's just a case of trying to work out data pricing. I really just need often it's procurement. I've chosen cellular. What's your sin price and what your data is like? What are you trying to achieve? So I guess companies like yourselves and others and to some extent ourselves, when it cascades down to us. Are are really trying to pull people forward into the beginning of a business planning process and await the technology. Is kind of weird thing for people in the technology industry to say yeah, to talk about the technology, right, right, right, yeah, and and I it entirely depends on who you're talking to. Also, right, I mean you're talking to the CEO, the way that you'll talk about these technologies will obviously be different than well, I will be business sorry day, but we're very rarely these projects. By the time we see them, at least they they come via the technically, the it, the technic the proculament department, right, right, right, and so, but there's a whole education process that's happening by that by the time they reach, things reach the procurement department, Right, and and I think that's really where we play. And and also again, just setting expectations around the technology at the head and hopefully you have something in the form of a more distilled set of expectations and things reach the procurement a group or even the this the CIO or the CTO. Right. And you know, surprisingly, I think folks might find surprising that there are many cios who just they don't understand B G and some of these other technologies,...

...including a lot of IOT stuff, because if they're, if they're not, they don't have the operational domain as part of their per view. They're just not familiar with the operational environments in most instances. Right. So, and that's very, excuse me, a very, very common. I mean just today I spoke to someone who's responsible for a global iot project, potentially hundreds of thousands of devices. Just somebody today and their first one of their first comments was, could you just take it through with me really easy, try not to use many acronyms. Please just just make it, just make it. They were very, very refreshingly honest that they're this surface, just cup. Can you just dumb it down for me, because I've got the responsibility of this project, and you just explain to me, you know, it's one of the reasons it just took a little bit about about our company. We it's one of the reasons why we're the only Iot Company, at least that we know of, and no one's ever told me they know of another one that actually also does the design of the hard way. We designed the hardware and we do the connectivity we make. We can. We can help design a piece of hardware to meet the use case and then we can make it connect automatically just by switching it on anywhere in the world. And that's why we got the customers that we have, because it's single skew, you know, ubiquitous, a hundred percent connectivity. But people say to us, why did you buy a hardware company? Don't you realize it's all about cloud, it's all about software, you know, where's your blockchain strategy and AI? especially the venture capital guys, it's like, Oh, you're not very you're not very sexy for us because you're in Hardwad, you know hard and you work with mobile network operators. Oh my God, I mean that's like the cut two worst things that we ever seen our portfolios. And what we say is, look, you got to actually if you're going to start off with the imagineering, as you said, that your process dovetails into our process, because you start off with the imaginary, what are you trying to achieve? What problem you're trying to solve, and then, if you could do this, if you could do that, that, just draw me a picture. Just forget the text. Drew me a picture what it might look like. And then you say, okay, so that therefore you need a thing, a device. Maybe it's an edge aggregation device. Yeah, you need a thing that that kecks data from all these sensors, that does this processing on it, that has localized. If then else we do it at the edge and then back holes the Meta data, you know, to private or hybery cloud. Yeah, that's what I did. Okay. So so you do realize then that that thing doesn't exist. You just drew on the White Bird. I mean it just you just ease. You just drawn a piece of hardware that doesn't exist. At that point that the blood drains from people spaces. They say, you mean, okay, I there isn't off the shelf hardware devices that I can buy. So you're telling me. This is when they realize, oh, but I wish I hadn't been assigned to this project, because I'm now having to not only am I got the project monkey on my back, if you like, but now you're telling me I have to design hardware. Of God, where's the exit? And then so we realize that that was a huge issue because hardware, IOT hardware, has to be designed for the use case. It's not like cell phones. Every piece of IOD hardware, pretty much man low end trackers, is unique. It's and so we bought a hardware design company that could actually help this process and work with some of the bigger design companies. And and then so we start after the imagineering has been done. That's where we kick in and say, okay, what's your device? And before we get going, we get connectivity. Forget, forget whether it's whether it's narrow band, Katam, one g four G fiund you what? We forget that. What what's the device look...

...like? And what the software and what's the if then else, the boolean logic and the security at that's a really important piece of work. And once you build the youth, create the device, the hardware, which you can do and in sort of rapidly, three to five months, you can do this, you then got something you can try out there and say, we'll take it out there and see whether or not people like it. Yeah, and typically then you have a much higher percentage of success than, you know, than the what we're seeing all the data back to Gardner and others. You know, with these reasons why I think it is at the bottom of that trough is that everybody knows the stat that eighty percent of BOT projects failed before they started. Well, yeah, it's I think one of the reasons why in play the expectations were so inflated was because everyone thought that the data was there. They said, Oh, wow, we're going to have x trillion, I don't know, is it trillier or a gazillion or whatever device is connected, and we're yeah, you know, hundreds of billions of yeah, it's listen, that with modules and Blah, blah, blah, and they you. But you know, like you said, the everyone was saying, well, data is the the Moil old and you know, the analytics is where it's at. Well, you know, analytics and all that stuff you do in the cloud doesn't really matter much if you don't have the data and the data has to get sourced from sensors, very fundamentally sensors, and then somehow has to go through that whole chain that has to be filed. It's and you have no data. Yeah, and what if you have using much alls or too much data and it's like it's just noise and it's so, it's so. Actually it's it does you know, going back to where we started. I think we can look back and say that's why all technologies actually go through this, because we talked about Iot, but by G I mean Ai Blosh it, all the ones that you said narrow band. Narrow Band's kind of really interesting because it creates so many opportunities. That low cost very good for battery powered devices. But then there are other issues. You know, the the you find that them a lot of the mobile network operators still don't support it under roaming. So it's that. It's another thing which is I want to do narrowband, but I don't want to have to swap my sims in and out on each device. And then what you find is that there's hardly any roaming agreements for narrow band and you think, is that a technical thing? Turns out that it isn't. It is, but principle reason why there isn't any, or do it aren't as many as you need. It's a commercial thing because the person receiving the roamings only getting twenty percent of the revenue of the person who sold it. And if an Arawband is, you know, a penny per month, you're only getting twenty percent of a penny. It's games not not worth it. And so it's this all points to planning information, doing your research before you start, if necessary, delaying the project, because starting again is really expensive. Right, right, yeah, okay. So so let's talk about, just to finish off here, the the hope. We always in these podcasts. We always, you know, it's part of the part of the definition of our podcast. Week we do point people at how complex it is, because you just have to understand that you have to navigate this and and where to go for help,...

...which we've done here. But at the same time we always want to we don't want to leave them, as individuals in the in the trough of despair and the armist to give up. And because the potential it will change the world. Mean it will be trillions or whatever. Where are the other one way or other it's going to change the world, hopefully in our lifetime, and it is changing the world. And there are companies that I mean, hell, we've got twozero clients and you know they're all they're all doing stuff and there's a lot of people doing stuff. So what do you have any examples of where you know you've seen people sort of battle through the pieces, work out the strategy, put something together and where you would say, you know, this company is a is a good example of someone who's using it for commercial advant teachers is got the some successful projects out there. You can point to people and say, look, look at what these guys are doing. This is the this is definitely worth spending the time on because look, look at the examples, the growing number of examples of people are being successful right now. Yeah, you know here this way I look at it is this is one of the things that I've discovered about Iot is that we've been doing Iot for well, conceptually, for a long time, and there are certain industries that have been long entrenched in in developing the IOT principles. In fact, you might even argue they're the ones who are have driven the technologies, as well as just the solution patterns that we the archetypical solution patterns that we look at in the Iot space, whether it's preventive maintenance or remote monitoring, what have you. Right, and I always go back to the work that I've done in the oil and gas industry working with some of the super majors with their innovation programs and you know the well, the well the future type programs where they're trying to figure out, okay, how do we now take the most advanced technologies available today and ideate through how we can now do this crazy stuff that we do today even better? And you can get some amazing examples out of that industry that I think just trickled down into other industries that that we talked about today, like manufacturing, the whole industry. Four point. Oh, I have to be honest with you. What they're doing is pretty basic compared to what the oil and gas industry has been investing and I would agree, wide range of the stuff. In fact, you know, I often joking, at least as it tell folks. Yeah, you know, cteo of oil and Gas Company will sit there and laugh at you if you can't walk up to and say, Hey, look and there's this thing called Iot like, okay, we've been doing doing that long time. We do that for a long time. I mean, let me teach you something about this stuff, right. And so you know now in the other industries are on a learning curve and some are doing it, you know, okay, and some are doing a some of others are doing it kind of okay or not. So okay, I think it's the challenge that we have right now with the trough being in the trough of dissolutionment, as we're trying to figure out where that path to value as where's that path to the that particular industries pot of gold. And it's a tough one, right. It's a tough discovery process us that they're going through. And one of the reasons why it's tough, and it's tough for everyone, including the consultants and the servers, providers and the vendors, is because the technology is continued to evolve so quickly. Yeah, and that's very, very challenge. Your example is a good one and as a sort of we bring it towards the end of this podcast, that we could, I think we could probably join the dots...

...on this and actually shine a light and it would be a bright light attends. There's hope because, you know, the manufacturing industry is is dealing with a lot of legacy, huge amounts of legacy equipment on the manufacturing flow which was definitely predated IOT or m to M as it was. But in the case of you take a wellhead or oil field, a refinery, I mean these things have got typically you have a lot of modern equipment in there. There's a lot of legacy, but there is modern. But there's this trillions of sense. I mean I think there's something like ten twenty million senses on an oil ring, for somebody told me that and that's probably a low, low number. So they're everything in there is sensors and it's because it's remote. The idea that certainly we've seen is the BACKTOFI G. where's the where's the pot of gold? It's if you designed a device, let's take maintenance for a rig, you know you've got ten million, twenty million senses, but it's way too much data. So you just you know, you design a custom device that something starts to go wrong and engineer can hold it up and I think about five Geez. You can get augmented reality, like pokemon type capabilities in a and you get it in other ways of virtual reality. Expanded Bill of materials are very complex piece of the rig and you can see all the different data of the flows and the rating is red and flashing light. There's something there. And the point about that, with it being five G is it new? Then backhaul it huge amount of data, massive wounds of data, but you could have somebody in Houston analyzing that and the rig could be somewhere of you know, the coast of Western Florida or whatever, and they're looking at it and they're saying, ah, I know exactly what's going wrong or what is likely to go wrong. So even just the idea of flying the helicopter out the rig with the right part, as opposed to what frequently happens today is they go out there and say are I finally worked out what it is. I now need to go back and get because the cost of a minute's downtime is just such a big high cost for these guys. So we see five g boat being a confluence of of the use case. It could be time to remediation, the accustom device. It's not an you need a custom device that is able to take data in various protocols from very senses, but only some of them, and a new technology like g which actually has such high bandwidth a low latency capabilities that you actually can do something much more complex, almost like taking the technology from the gaming industry and cascading it into that and I think I think that's a good use case. But all three things came together the idea. How can we have less downtime on the rig or predict when the drill bit will overheat or whatever it is? The the the custom hardware, because there's nothing off the shelf will work. So how do I design one? And DERE'S IT? And then, therefore, what technology should I use? But if you approach it that way, that could be worth tens of millions of dollars a year a rick. Yeah, and then then you got a winner on your hands. So difficult time, but you know what you're doing and why you're doing it. Yeah, and and yeah, I think you're onto something and it's something that we oftentimes invites, especially one startups, is focus on the high value stuff. Right, that's simple to do. Yeah, and that's the good news, that it'll be simple. You don't have to do all this magically ambitious yeah, yeah, you have it be's like them, right, you don't have to be Gand off the gray of Iot to, you know, do all...

...these slay the Balrog of the problem. The you know, it can be pretty simple. But you have the tricky part. The hard part is figuring out where those large high value pockets are, and that will be the challenge as we're in the trough of disillusionment coming out. The sad reality is that it's going to be a tough journey for a lot of players that are out there today. And but you know that. That would be the recommendation that would leave to your audience is just kind of keep it simple, but keep your sights on prioritize on things that are high value, because if there's no high value like what you just described, it's just not going to justify the spend. And it seems like such a simple, it seems logical thing, but it's something that people need to be reminded of constantly exactly at and I would say it is one closing thought for me before we wrap this up as its been great. Thank you, but I know I was just say. Also, people tend to look in the wrong place for the value. So, for instance, in the forget the oil rigsite, but in the I have generallytd guys consumer electronics. I think, well, I can sell more of this thing then it's small and has loads of whizy features. I'll sell more because it's cool. People will buy more. So the value will be I'll sell twice as many units. And I would say none no, no, that's not the value. No, that's nice, but that's not the value. The value is if you could, let's take you like one of our customers, Bosh robotic glamos. If you could make a single skew product, make it once and sell it in any country and people switch it on, it just connects and the data just goes to the cloud, then you just say millions of dollars in the supply chain. Yeah, we'd probably say millions of dollars in the in the manufacturing process. You probably saved millions of dollars in the warranty avoidance process and you've probably enabled the marketing department not to spend millions of dollars are trying to collect information from users because you're now getting the data from every device of parates being used. In other words, the value is in the boring corporate back end processes, which were built for a completely different world that wasn't smart enabled. It's not selling five percent more lawmos. That's an added bonus. And and so we would always say look for the value in the corporate processes. By the way, if you can find it or postulate that it's there, that will actually get you into the c suite, because that's what they care about actually, because those we're spending a fortune on complexity and so that that's the Bulls are. If you can find the value in the back end processes and a lot of the systems integrators that's what they do, and then say this is where the money is, this is the simple use case. I'm now going to go for it. I want to design something, rolled it out and try it. I would agree. That's the point that you come out of the curve and they're the companies that are doing it, and and the other companies that often we get on this show at least, and we say to them, what did you do and how did you do it? And they're always pretty modest, but they typically have done that. So yeah, listen, we could go on for hours. We said in advance we probably could, and I think week, but you'd be very generous. I didn't think we'd get into Lord of the Rings. I was granted. I was trying to get the Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I was trying to think of our track and more of the Rings' Star Trek and Lord of the Rings. That's a couple of book ends. So what more could you want a bit of Iot disillusionment in the middle. Okay then, I thank you very much. Let's wrap it up now into our listeners. I hope you enjoyed this show. Just as a...

...reminder, there's a whole series of these now out there, and so check out the back catalog and there's going to be a whole series more going to be released going forward. If you have any feedback, as always, you want to either make some comments, we love getting your feedback, or suggest subjects that we should cover or even people that you think we should talk to. Contact me, K L really, on linkedin or send an email to Iot leaders at Si eseyecom. But in the meantime, thanks for listening then it thanks for covering a wide variety of subjects and we didn't get onto the music, but but maybe that's that's for the next time, is it? I'm sure there's an old series of stories there as well. And thank you everybody, and I'll talk to you again on the next episode. Thanks for this. Thank you, cheers. Thanks for tuning in to Iot leaders, a podcast brought to you by Si our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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