IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 3 months ago

What does eSIM mean for the IoT industry? w/ Francis D’Souza

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The era of eSIM technology is here.

eSIM provides resilient connectivity alongside resilient IoT device security — and it does it while keeping total costs low for device makers.

In this episode, Nick interviews Francis D’Souza, VP Strategy & Products - IoT at Thales, about the benefits and use cases of eSIM technology.

Join us as we discuss:

- Four reasons eSIM technology benefits IoT practitioners

- Who determines data pricing

- Primary customers for eSIM 

- Using eSIM to acquire resilient connectivity and IoT device security

To hear more interviews like this one, subscribe to IoT Leaders on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform. 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for IoT Leaders in your favorite podcast player.

You're listening to Iot leaders, apodcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation,swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned and innovation strategies that work. In each episodeyou'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the worldfor the better. What IOT leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformationand innovation? Let's get into the show. Welcome to the IOT leaders podcast withme, your host, Nicolle, the CEO of Iot company Si.This is the podcast, as maybe will know. Certainly of you've been listeningand watching previous episodes where we tempt to demistify different aspects of Iot because weknow it was a very complicated world. And in this episode I'm delighted towelcome our guest from tables, which is Francis, to Susa, and Francisis a head of strategy for Talis World Wide. Francis, welcome to theIOT leaders podcast. Thanks Nick, thanks for having me. Glad to beand I know, Francis, you got a global really meets and you're basedin Paris. Maybe just any of our viewers listeners who not fully familiar withTalus and perhaps the tie with Jamalto. Maybe you could explain, you know, briefly, to begin with Talis and then you'll roll. I will dowhat your role in tails before we get into the subject of this podcast,which is all going to be around what's happening in e Sims and how howit works, how we believe is going to change the industry. Absolutely so. Tallas is is a company that is present in different sectors, but alllinked with the need to actually have to build that's a resilient systems. Sothis sectors are errorspace, defense and digital security and Cybersecurity, and within this, what talents does is establishes the world of trust. I'd like to focuson the digital and digital security and side...

...the security part of Talas, becauseyou'd require about Ramata. So dramata was acquired by Talas and Gramato is reallythe pillar around which the digital and cyber security business is being built. Ofand it works in different sectors. So there's a whole building trusts and cybersecurity for mobile operators, for banks and financial systems, for enterprises, forgovernment and public sector and for Iot, and specifically within the Iot but Ihead up the strategy and products for the IOT unit. Where what talents doesis brings, first fall, the most resilient cellular connectivity solutions to connect ivotdevices. In addition to that, what Talas brings, in addition to thecellular modules that are used to connect devices, the e Sims, and they're reallyadvanced technology around ESM that make for extremely resilient collectivity services as well asextremely color from a TCO perspective, helping keep total costs of ownership, i. t device maker service providers under control thanks to ease them technology. Allof this underlined with cyber security, because this is essential for all of ourbusinesses to day and particularly for Iot, where if you don't have security bydesign right at the start on your I device, Iot system, you arepotentially exposed to a lot of, let's a bad actors in the chair,and talents brings the cyber security solutions on top of the cellular module and Connectivityand the ease and services for the out okay, great, thank you forthat. Now there was a lot in there, but there was one bitin the middle that was specifically going to double click on, and and youmentioned the world of e sins. So let me just sort of play outthe big picture at least from my perspective as I see it, and thenyou can jump in as to what tell us are doing in this area sobroadly for the last twenty thirty years, we talked about on previous podcast.For us, twenty thirty years of arguably some cell phones first came out.There there hasn't been so much an easin...

...there there has been a proprietary stem. So there are over eight hundred mobile network operators in the world. Theyall have their own indi. International Mobile Subscriber Identity and the way they goto market is there em D is loaded into their same so when you contract, particularly from a cellular consumer voice perspective, which is where it was for thefirst thirty years, for you contract with the mobile operator, you gotup their sin and then you that same always connected to the operator, andthen the operator created global reach with roaming, and so you have a lot ofroaming agreements between operators and many too many type situation. And that reallyhas been the case pretty much right from the beginning of a cellular but thatis now changing and and the whole easin which refers to not embedded as such, but the ability to actually have a Agnos operator agnostic sin where you can, and I use it an analogy of sort of like the way the kindleworks or some of these ones where you actually the device will pull down theright M D basiciens requirements at that time, or a intermediately like an Mbno,with the load the MS based on the requirements at that time. So, in other words, it seems to me like it's a pretty fundamental pointin the maturity of the Mobile Network operator where we're going in from a worlddominated by proprietary sins to this emerging world with these sins which is essentially ageneric sin that can be loaded with IMSEA's over the air. Have I broadlylaid the table right on that landscape you had doing? I must point outabout the world proprietary, because a lot of for the HELPCO industry, wouldcome back with a hammer on the world proprietary for the Simit Cels, becausethe Simme it cels is completely standardized. Semi standardize. Yeah, but whatthey put it, but what it builds on the stack? Yes, Imean your kinds are of it's kind of a same issued by an operator.Yeah, the ES and, like you currently pointed out, is the abilityto have at any stage with a hardware...

...is standardized, but the subscription ofan operator could be changed during the life cycle. Now, specifically, pointof view of an IET device makeup at service provider, why is this capabilityuseful, and probably even more than consumer devices? The first thing, asan at device maker, as an ID service provider, you're probably building devicesto ship around the world. SMART meter manufacture builds is a line of devices, a variant to go around the world. You might use different operators in differentcountry. You might not know about it till you're shipping the device orat the point of insulation. How do you manage that? If you goto have a different simple operator per country, it explodes a number of skews andvariants. Stock keeping units increases your cost of fundersition. So this isone point. How do you manage device variety when is shipping all across theworld? Second Point, especially for devices that are using cellular networks but tendto be fixed, that's a smart meters or alarm panels, there fix locationsin the home. In this case, literally the network has to come tothe device. That device cannot go to the network like an like in acar. You don't have network you drive a few meters, you might actuallyget a network. In this case the device is fixed. So how doyou actually how does the technician acquire the right, the operator that's present atthat point in time that its meters installed? If you've got e some capability,it's literally like you catch out and you pull the network down to themeet. So this is the second point. Smart installation of the operator based onthe conditions at the point of insulation. The third point is fall back.During, you know, the life of any device, network conditions change, say an operators base station goes down and suddenly a device is out ofcoverage. How do you manage situations like this? How do you have backupoperators to be able to give you the resilience that you as a service providerof providing your customer? That's a third one. And the fourth one isin life change. So, for example,...

...you have contractual and this is typicalof IOT devices. They might tend to have a long lifetime, tenfifteen years. SMART meters are very long time, but your telco contracts mightbe five, six years and at the end of it you might have anothercontract either it's because your original Telco has done the sunset of the network oryou wish to change or the Mana, things like that. Much Muder nequisitionbetween telcos. So how do you update the subscriptions on this devices at theend of a contractual period? And this capability of being able to remotely,digitally, be able to change your operator on your device rarely helps bring costsaving and bring the capability at the time of variant and device management, ofvariants management, of getting the right network at the point of insulation, ofdevice ability to have a resilience and fall back in case of loss of primaryconnectivity and ability to be able to contractingly change operators over the year without sendingsomeone, without doing a rock roll, should you wish to do it.And this is the ecent capability that's now on the market, that standardized,that's rolled out, that's implemented, that's really starting to make a different sniety. So you've made, as a company, had made a pretty significant announcement inthis field and you fact, one of the first movers in that respect. So maybe you can just reallycamp the announcement you made as to how theTheo's benefits are clearly needed, especially with large, mostly region or even globalemployments to fall back to the bootstraps that you referring to, the the abilityto switch, and is intue that you said, the ability to pull ratherthan rush. So all these things are really important characteristics of the solution.You can you just recap the announcement you've made and sort of talk to ita high level about how the new solution works? Absolutely, and I thinkI'll probably start up with the journey, because you're going to take you ona bit of imagination, so mind space, project yourself. So literally, you'vegot your IOT device. It's got...

...no subscription in it, it's gota hardware, let's call it, but it's literally an empty shell. Yeah, at the time of manufacturing the device you don't know where it's going togo, you don't know going to, you don't know what which network,where is that particular device going to go? You don't know all you have.But you do know that out of the let's say hundred thousand devices you'regoing to ship, you're probably going to have fortyzero, in Australia, thirtyzeroand in Japan tenzero. In the US, stick for example, you also havevarious telco contracts in different parts of the world. All you do is, even before you ship your devices, you go to a portal and youset your provisioning rules. It could be as simple as, if a deviceshows up in this country, use this telco. If a device, forexample, shows up in a country where I have to telco contracts, let'ssay smart metering, typical because you need to tell co contracts with the coverage. But in these conditions you tell Goa. In these conditions you sell go beand you just set up these provisioning rules. So you just put themup on a platform and you ship your devices. When your devices power onthe first time using the bootstrap, they actually hit your server. They saywhere should I get my subscription from, and the server redirects it to thatoperator is on the provisioning rule where it press, a device presents an activationcode, again part of the standards, and downloads the subscription. And allthis process starting from an empty shell. You've done your provisioning rules, WakingUp, hitting the server, saying where do I get my subscription from,and downloading it from the corresponding m and no happens in the time. That'swake shorter than my explanation out there. And and this is something we've actuallybrought to the market. It relies on standardized infrastructure that telcos around the worldhave put in place to deal with consumer...

...devices like the iphone and some ofthe other easm based devices, and we've literally made the cellular module and theEasym Act like these devices. So using existing infrastructure and place around the worldto be able to implement this capability for it. And that's quite a breakthroughbecause it addresses most of the pain points that Iot device makers and out serviceproviders have when rolling out and making their projects of success. And and justto go a little bit deeper, I mentioned the kindle is an example ofthat. Existing technology, of I think I'm right saying, is what's calledthe SNDP plus to techno rate corrects, and that's where it is a wholeand a push. So it's the differences. Today in Iote, a lot ofthe technology involves in you sensor condition and you push an Em z Ota, but this would be a pole. So the device says I now needbased on the rules, I need absolutely and it goes and it polls fromfrom the MC. So so that's the that's the yeah, that's that's fun. That's the fundamental difference and the ability of doing it as a pull ratherthan the push is that you do things based on real, actual network conditions, real life conditions. It's not bas and theoretical stuff are its service pushingbased on, but assumptions. It's actual, real time conditions where the device sendit back to the servants that tell me where should I get my subscriptionfilm? And I think one of the things that you will provide, andwe'll get into who this is for in a minute, but let's say foran MB in a or CSP, someone who is using this to offer globalcapability, you'll provide them with network information, which could be which which, asyou said, fixed devices, which networks are available in that exact location, absolute latency or whatever. So you'll provide network Mo worring information which theywill then write their rules around, which...

...will determine when the pull happens ofthe hums. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So all of these let's say parameterswould be passed on either automated or the Apis, and then they couldbe used in by a different provisional rule engine to decide about making the subscriptiondownload. What about the pricing? What about data pricing? So I understandhow that technology will work. And the MNOS, I mean you have trendto serve reach into the world zempose many of the mark customers of yours,especially through the Gemalto side of this. I guess it uses the Demal too. SMS are technology, S MDP plus, yes, and TV plus, excuseme, at a technology. But the what about the billing and theand the data pricing? WHO DETERMINES THE PRICE? Thing, for the Datasare based on a contract between these spesp or and the in a show levelsof us. So absolutely. So where talents comes in is Talas provide isliterally providing the plumbing between the different parts of the ecosystem. Yeah, Palasdoesn't get into the contractual relationships between the Om's and the MNOS or the Vanos, or between the Iot service provide and, let's say, the onesthat's find the devices and the MNOS, and NBA knows. So Talas isthe enabler and the I t device make or the at service provider has commercialrelationships and agreements with people like yourself, I guess, I with the othertail Cos, and uses those commercial relationships to set up the provision groups.So thalas doesn't get into that. Where talents does is providing the infrastructure tothe MNOS in the NBA or the s MDP plus to be able to bringthis capability. And most of the MS and NBA nose around the world,like Guip with the capability, and Talas provides the cellular module with the esmsthat go into the at devices, as...

...well as the back end platform thatdoes the plumbing between the device, between the s MDP plus and has allthe subscriptions downloading into devices and makes it available a list, makes it availableas a very simple commercial model. So you have the hardware on the device, that. EASM, that goes along with the cellular module. So youhave one price there and then you have a transaction fee for every subscription thatyou download into the device. Okay, and WHO's the primary customer? Itseems like they could be a multiple different types of customers, as is solution. So sort of I category. Can you serve? Absolutely the customer forwhich this is the, let's say, the easiest utility from a from animplementation point of view, it's easiest is an IOC divide, an Iot devicemakeup also bringing its own connectivity. That's because you have out devices makers justas make the hard way and then sell it on to someone else who putstogether the solution, an Iot device maker that's also bringing in the connectivity.Yeah, the package is the device plus the connectivity is ideal for this,and it could actually even be so you have a many customers, for example, e. bike manufacturers. When you bike manufacturers, they build a device, they also provide a connectivity because that's part of the service. That's asweet spot for this. You might even have, and you might be surprisedto know, in some of for example in the smart metering world, thecommercial contracts are changing. They move from a hardware model, just sell smartmeter to the utility and then the utility by their connectivity, to a modelwhere the smart meter manufacture sells metering as a service, in which case thesmart manufacturer cells and Salla and then has to do all the negotiations and choosesthe best conn again. Yeah, that's another typical one. Then there's amodel that's a bit hybrid, and let's take the smart metering example, wherethe smart meter manufacturer will ship the smart...

...meters but the utility would buy theconnectivity. YEA, the problem is not going away. If it's utility buyingthe connectivity of the smart meter manufactured by the connectivity, you still have thesame problems. That smart meter needs to get the best network as at Rock, in which case the hardware, so to speak, is bought by thesmart meter manufacturer and the service to download the subscription is bought by the utility. So those are typically the two kind of models that exist. And ofcourse, for the infrastructure self, the SMDP plus, that's on the telcostside. That's something the palace sells to the MNOS or the NBA Nos directly. Yeah, okay, I got it. I think one of the other areastouched on in your initial view was security. Would you say that weall know how big a concern security is and in fact continues to be andis actually getting more and more important because of the threat the expanding edge wetook to it and previous podcasts here. But does this solution things easier toimplement a security policy or any of the customers that you've been referring to?Absolutely so. I'll come back to that in a second because so one ofthe things about security is the needs to be a concept of security by design. If you don't build in security from the start, you can't retrofit,and this is easier said than done because every device is unique. Of YourEnvironment is unique. So the principles of security are quite simple. Putting thatinto practice is harder. So within the GSMA there's a new initiative that's launchcalled IOT safe, which is sim is used as a kind of a routeof pruss and as a as a base to start to secure the device.Yeah, and that's him. Could actually be the same eason that we've justspoken about earlier to download the subscription of the telegra of the of the MNO, the telecote. Are you selected? That Sim could also be used asa route of trust and as the trust anchor in the device for the securityof the device itself. So moving forward,...

...what's going to happen is there's goingto be a massive deployment of e Sims and ESEM technology. In parallel, there's a parallel track within the GSMA to standardize security via this Iot safeinitiative, and that capability could reside with within the same eason we spoke about. So Your Sim now becomes your way of acquiring and managing extremely resilient connectivityand your way of acquiring and managing extremely resilient IOT divide security. And oneof the reasons I asked you that it is just to actually such onto somethingthat we as si offer, because I think security is, as we bothknow, a large, complex area and many components, and one of themis the issue of policy. A nominally did exttion behavior and deployment of policyto the edge. And so, in other words, when do you howdo you spot infringement? When do you change the security cificate inside the spin? So one of the things that we have done is a relationship with theagentless security company called armies. There was a subject of a previous podcast.Now I think this fits in with with with what you just said, becausemy own view of as back to my opening comments, my own view ofwhat's going to happen as a result of this change of the what I callthe I won't use the P word that he's skilled me not to use,but let's say to a generic Sim is that you're going to see more adoption. And clearly that's one of the commercial reasons you've done it. It's oneof the reasons we're in business. You see more adoption because as you rightlysaid at the beginning, people have held back, particularly, you know,the we mentioned the fifty billion things that we're going to be connected by.Two Thousand and twenty we got to eleven billion. It's a classic Parato.It's the eighty percent of things that are owned by twenty percent of the companiesthat didn't really give to full deployment. And they're the big multi region globaldeals, because people want global the big brands from global solutions. And ifthey were going to have to change the sins all the time and change theirback ends, and there eight the eyes and the support infrastructures, it's toocomplicated. There was the Roi wasn't there,...

...but the moment you have introduced this. So Oh, then I can have a global sin and then thebased on where the device lights up, I can actually have the poll technologyto pull up right emty at time. So you have to assume that oneof the effects of this will be an increase in adoption. Now, lookingat it from the completely the and that's the glass half full, perspective,looking at the a's PARF empty perspective, you say, well then, ifIot security cellular devices is a problem, then as the number of cellud devicesincreased than the security threat perimeter, if you like, increases. So backto what we've done with arms, our miss and, in case people haven'theard, the armist episode. But they do agentless securities. So their philosophy. The California based company leader in by far in the agentless security for utydevices. What they say is, look that you can never keep pace withthe bullets planting down the stairs. You can never actually put a security pieceof an agent security likes semantic do on every device because the number of devicesis growing exponentially. So you have to almost like use radar. My words, not, there's sense what's out there. And then you have a CMDB configurationmanagement database. Is it behaving properly? Oh, that one's not behaving properly. Take a look at it. My policy is if it's not behavingproperly, quarantine it, inspect, find out what's wrong and then, ifneed be, change in security certificates that would fit into the safe. Hesame thing that you're talking about. The challenge for both of us is thatthe IOT devices that are behind epeno fire walls aren't visible to enterprise. It'sbecause they're one step removed because they're behind the MNO. so as your technologyenables more m nos to basically be switched in and out of devices, becausethat's essentially what it does, then those devices arguably become even more invisible.So what we've done, I think it is a very important piece of thejuice or here, because by running here at SI rerun all of our platformconnectivity management platform over a private network.

So thinks that's like our own MPLSnetwork. By connecting the R mpls network to our miss is cloud solution,which is connected to the enterprises mpls network, essentially you have a single mpls connectivityto every device, independent of which m now it's using at any onetime. So suddenly you've solved a very important problem. You've extended the perimeterof your end. If you're an enterprise, you've extended the perimeter of your enterprisenetwork to Iot devices that themselves can be on potentially hundreds of m notes, at which point you can then set policy centrally and have it deployed tothe true edge, which is the Iot Edge, and that that, Ithink, is I believe that that's going to be really important as companies likeyour own enable much greater adoption across many more MNO's. That's the glass halffull. The glass top empty. Is people would say, Oh, what'sthat going to do with my security? It's going to make problems worse.Therefore, you have to have governance, policy, compliance, quality of service. It's almost as armist described it to me, or some restricting to meis it's almost like every iot device is if it's connected by Ethernet cable intoan ASSISCA rootter. But the idea of extending visibility policy control to the edgeof the network, and I think that's going to be really important because youliterally cannot put agent software and all these devices because they're all made by differentmanufacturers. A lot of them are sealed, they have pretty poor security, andI think it also it probably also solves the concern for the device manufacturers, doesn't it, because they they are also worried that any security problem oftenreflects on the device up manufacturer. Yeah, absolutely so. In fact, whatyou described, I mean, those are complete the complementary efforts, becausewith things like IOT safe and trust ankle...

...and security by design, it's,let's say, it's hygiene factor. It needs to be done, but securityby design doesn't mean fire and forget, because security is always a moving targetand and hackers always moving really fast. And what you describe of having theability to constantly scan the behavior of devices and, based on the analytics,to be able to detect any device, as you know, divised devices thatare behaving up normally flagg it set policies, is an essential component because again,remember, these are long life devices. So you might have the security bydesign and you will have your security policies that are said at the timethe devices introduced into the market, which may not be good enough five sixyears down the line, which is where the ability, besides the good practiceof having the ability to update and patch devices in a secure way, theability to detect this behavior using something like the system you describe from our missis is essential. Besides the fact that for many enterprises, if there's notbeen alt devices that I've been designed with security by design principles, you atleast cover for that possibility by having such a kind of solution. So thesesolutions, one at the during let's say time of device design and implementation,and the other one constantly during the life cycle of a device, are essentialand complete complementary to each other. So I think that makes for a verygood compliment. Okay, I think a good understanding an overview of it.If you've announced it recently. Where are even in terms of the projecting youryou in the early adoptor's phase? I guess you've got them and always meant, as you point out, the moment network copper is already have most ofthem. I guess you would have a SMDP plus. It's not like theyhave to learning happy because of the consumer devices use, right. You sortwhole technology. Yeah, so you're in...

...the process of just rolling out theprogram now and signs the program absolutely. Absolutely. So. We've got ourfirst device is shipping and we went, you know, classic we tested theconcept minimum biable proposition and product eyes and rolling out in mass. Thank forsome pretty big rollouts on. I can mention one example because that's public.Besides, there's lots of others which are bit under the Hood Right now,but there's a very big smart metering rollout that's happening using this technology up inScandinavia and really segments like smart metering really need this technology as well because of, for example, in Scandinavia you've got. You might not have the best coverageall over the country, like in every country. So you need tohave this whereas a smart meters fix at the location of the wall, atthe meter where the non smart met at the location with a non smart meterwas fix. So rather than have technician go out trying to figure out thebest network, the antennas and everything, this intelligence is built in and itsthe ECAM downloads the subscription that's needed at that point of time. So thisis commercialized, rolling out on Katam Networks, on Lt cat one networks, onLt cat NBAT networks as well. It's been tested, works brilliant youngcat and be networks as well. This is very, very much production grade, rolling out in implementation, in deployments and under testing beyond the ones thatall did in deployment, and that the thing with a host of customers andat the same time there are many eminos and mb and nos also on boardinginto the platform so that as they sign up contracts on their side with devicemakers, device makers could also use this capability. Okay, all right,great. So, Francis, if any of our listeners wanted to get intouch with you to find out more, how would they do that. Well, you got my friends at that. This is that Pallett Groupcom you realID. But besides that, at any point of time you could just goto the palettes website, Palletts Groupcom Iot,...

...just fill the perform requests and getin touch with us. Or I mean we've been doing especially on thistopic of what we call the IOTAS you put in a search for IODEA SIMon Linkedin, you'll have plenty of stuff that POPs up. You'll have meand a lot of different videos going to give me on Linkedin and we cantake it from there. Yeah, and I've been on there and I've seenhe's got a few explanation videos and absolutely done of quite paper. And doyou absolutely that's right? All right. Well, I think that's probably agood overview for people, and hopefully people do visit the website and find outmost for what if we leave it there. Thank you very much for appearing onthis episode of Iot leaders podcast. Is exactly what we wanted to doand we design this series. It is really a Shinne light on how tonavigate through a lot of the complexities of Iot and certainly this area of beingable to get large global deployments, to be able to simplify the deployment andto actually have choice, agnostic choice across different operators is something that many ofour previous speakers I've spoken about, so I'm sure it will be successful.So I'd like to finished by again thanking friendstance Susan from Temas, and thankyou for listening. Will be doing all Iot lead as podcast. If youneed to get in touch with me, I'm a Nick Gel, CEO ofSI. You can find me on Linkedin, but also that we have our emailaddress as well, which is Iot leaders, sieeseyecom. So thanks forlistening and look forward to talking to you all the next episode. Thanks againfor tuning in. Thanks for tuning in to Iot leaders, a podcast broughtto you by SI. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions thatjust work, helping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learnmore at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership onthe front lines of Iot. Our Vision...

...for this podcast is to be yourguide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route tosuccess. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your visionof Iot? Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating,reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (20)