IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 1 year ago

From M2M to IoT: Driving Innovation w/ Andreas Haegele

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Does your company have a VP of IoT? You might want to think about creating one.

As IoT continues to grow, the role you and your company can play advancing offerings within the internet of things grows as well.

In this episode of IoT Leaders, Nick Earle, CEO of Eseye, talked with Andreas Haegele, VP of IoT at Thales, an organization dedicated to cutting through the complexity of IoT.

Here's what was covered:

  • Use cases of IoT and rapidly growing customer segments
  • IoT history and why predictions in 2011 missed the mark
  • New business models and offerings of the future


If you have ideas for future episodes, input or have questions, email IoTLeaders@eseye.com or connect with Nick on LinkedIn.

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts, you can find every episode here.

You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned and innovation strategies that work. In each episode, you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the IOT leaders podcast with me, your host, nickel, CEO of Si. On today's podcast I'm delighted to be joined by Andreas Segula. It was the VP of Iot a tell us and there us. Welcome Nick. Thank you very much, thanks for having me. Yeah, you're very welcome. To tell us a little bit about your role at Talis. What does VP of Iot really mean? Yeah, so I'm running the IOT Business Inside Palace and I've been doing that for quite a while. Maybe a bit of background to who we are. So originally our businesses stemming from the very old days at Siemens. That decided to divest from communications and IT became C Interion, which is still our trademark or brand, and we were acquired by Jamalto. So many most people probably know us by I was going to say they probably know Jamalto more. I guess it was a fairly recent was the Talis acquisition relatively recent? We had palasons the April of last year. So yeah, earlier reason. And Yeah, but now we are transforming the business and for myself I've been running the the product marketing was to put forlio manager for a long time when I became sales. So I know the light side and dark side off the business and I'm running the whole thing. I would ask you to I won't ask you to define which One's light which one's dark. You'll carry on. We'll have a mixture of engineers and sales people are listening to the podcast. But yeah, technology is always something that you...

...can agree on right. Yeah, and over the years we started from a purely cellular modern business and we have evolved. With the acquisition by by Jamalta, we got access to SIM technology and the same management and, of course, all the aspects of security to bring trust to the ecosystem. And Yeah, today we we tie that together with all the elements of industry the Talis is serving, making it the quiet, competitive, appealing set up for the Industrial Iot. So before we dive in with the first point that I want to talk about, which is all to do with how we got our predictions so wrong in Iot. But before I get there, we asked you to be our first guest on our podcast. So congratulations, but also because you know, Talas is such a huge player. And just in case is anybody out there who doesn't actually understand what a big player you are in Iot. I mean if you just take, for instance, you're module or yours or SIM card business, can you give us some numbers on a global basis, just for our listeners to realize just how big a player and how credible a player you are in space? Yeah, I think that the number that resumeates best is that we have like more than two hundred million devices in the field out there that are connected using our technology. That is for the cellular modems, and when you think about the devices that are relying on Dramalto Sim technology, that's in the billions of quose. It includes the cell phones and and everything else that users some cards, not only industrial IOT devices, but we have a fairly strong foot print in the industry and we know, I think we know what we're doing. There's yeah, I think that's called German under statement. Fairly strong billions will do. So, talking at billions, let's dive in here, and this is the mayor copper side, from the IT industry to the users. And I must have been I played a role in this. So let's get one. The clock back in two thousand and eleven.

Many people, and I was at Cisco at that time, and but not just CISCO, but Ericson and many as we confidently predicted by two thousand and twenty there be fifty billion things connected. And you know, we weren't talking about cell phones, we were talking about things. And here we are two thousand and twenty and the results are in and it's eleven, eleven billion, and that's a hell of a miss. And and okay, you know the IT industry often, Mrs Forecast, mainly overestimates, but not normally by that amount. So you've been involved in this area, big player and series in both for many years. What your take on on how, collectively, why did why we not got to fifty billion? Because clearly the potential, everybody gets the potential, biot. So what went wrong? So first of all I will say you earn't wrong, except for the timing right. I strongly beliieve in a fifty billion and they they will soon be reached. I always saw is that, especially the the cellular space, is a very complex ecosystem because you need to have a good lineup of several parties that contribute to a successful IOT solution. And we were actually by those days, if you remember well, in two thousand and eleven, we were still speaking about M to M, machine to machine. It was not called the Iot as of yet, and machine to machine meant we were operating closed systems. So we were we were enabling individual use cases, and the acceleration started with the with the mention of Iot, where we are now connecting subsystems to what is the Internet of things. But with the emergence of the Internet of things, new aspects did arise that the industry didn't pay enough attention in the early days, which is probably also security, because the moment you go from a point to...

...point, single party to multiparty system, there's a lot of other aspects that you need to consider. And then another say slow down of the ecosystem is the regional fragmentation we had. We had a lot of players that were actually working on distributed applications in various geographies with different regulations that apply different mobile network operators to support their business, different requirements in terms of pellular technology, Sun Setting one technology here, another one rolling out there. And and then a lot of the momentum got lost into the exchange of technology by migrating applications from twog to Threeg, where you would otherwise just continue to roll out based on new technologies. So what we saw is a lot of fragmentation, technical hurdles to be worked security aspect, as I mentioned, fragmented Mobile Network Operator Landscape with limited global offerings. And Yeah, then then, last not least, lack of experience, where where the community started on a do it yourself and in these days we actually also saw the emergence of public clouds infrastructure. That gained a lot of momentum, but it forced the industry the read just again and move their otherwise proprietary application into public crowd infrastructure. So all that took more time than probably initially anticipated, and this is why we didn't see the fifty billion in two thousand and twenty. But now, as it will getting to there, we will definitely here. You know, I've been in and around it. A confession time now, I've been in around it for forty years and if I put my myself in the shoes of the user, I guess it's small consolation when we talk about all the fragmentation and the complexity and,...

...you know, you could almost make the case the user saying, guys, you know why, why can't you get this complexity out as as an ecosystem? Why can't you get interoperability? Why can't you get standards? And and my own view on on it is that, in particularly with regard to Iot. I mean first of all, all technologies start off as proprietary, because vcs fun technologies and they compete with each other, and then ultimately you get the inflection point when when you get interoperability and de facto standards occur. So this is a very well trodden path and it hasn't happened yet in Iot, which is essentially a summary of what you just said. But one of the reasons why it hasn't happened yet is that we've been is that in many of the customers we have, you know, as Si we have two thousand diart customers. Many of them, when they come to us, it's their first IOT project and they think that. You know, their job is to distribute food or to do healthcare devices or to do ev charges. They're not module device connectivity specialists. And as a feeling that, well, you know, I already have ubiquitous connectivity. I mean I have a mobile phone and and it seems to work and you know, surely it's just an extension of that. It's a piece of electronics with a you know, modem in and perhaps a screen, but as SIM card. But actually, clearly it wasn't like that. There was way more fragmentation. I mean the mobile phone market you have like Seiden or a big providers. You don't switch the networks as much. You can deal with downtime, connectivity, gaps in the connectivity, and so what we actually realize that building from a just straightforward consumer base, it wasn't like that. IOT was like starting again into particularly from the devices side. And you know, and for our listeners, that's why, between the two of us, and we can do a quick advertorial here, that's why we created the intelligent cloud connect offering, wasn't it? Because from your...

...point of view you have the modules, the cinterion range, and from our point of view, we have the ubiquitous connectivity and the and the native hyperscale cloud connection. And maybe, just so listeners can have some ideas, a brief overview of to solve these these issues of friction and complexity, we actually try to really simplify things with the first zero touch connectivity offerings in the market. Maybe, maybe is a chance for the quick advertorial and what we did. Yeah, thought know, I I once said in an interview. I said my mission is to cut through the complexity of the IOT and even a friend of mine at arm he said, I can I use that quote because it describes it really well. Our mission is to simplify the Iot because we will see the volume growth only once it's easy to adopt by by people who are not specialist in our space. And and that's the justification of our existence. That what we are here for. So and and yeah, working, working with as I it's just bringing two parties together that are extremely complimentary in that space. So the ubiquitous connectivity, as you mentioned, for us on the hardware site, and to have it pre integrated in a cloud offering, those are the three elements that every IOT application needs. And Yeah, if you ask me, personally being part of Extramulta now Talles. Security is always the other aspect that is horizontally needed in any type of application, be medical, be track and traves, be it uplic safety to different degrees, but that's that's also another element and having having that either solved out of the box, which is what we what we have in our terminal that we are promoting together, that is integrated into the aws cloud and and also al see your platform. That is a quick starter to anybody who wants to go iot and wants to have all problems solved up front or then the buildings blocks that go into that solution that can be integrated in different applications. That's really our contribution...

...to the reduction of complexity in the space. Okay, so it sounds like we've made progress as an industry and between our two companies we've made some progress on reducing complexity, certainly at the module layer. Having ubiquitous global connectivity. It just connects out of the box. You need to think about it. You can connect anywhere, any square meter of land edically. Yeah, led the yeah, welcome the underlying complex mobile network operated landscapers. You point out is is is quite a complex changing beast, but also this idea of security where if you can actually store the security certificate in the module, then what will happen is you can use the hyperscale cloud guys for your policy management. I mean that's one of the things. The best spring is centralized policy management with deployment the edge around things like a normally detection behavior. So it's really a three way cooperation with with Talis side and aws. So given that, maybe ask you the question which typical use cases and customer segments do you mark it to? Because there's not just you're not just you're not selling just to end users or just two people who build products. You have different from your point of view, the definition of customer is quite a few different segments, isn't it? Differently, yeah, sometimes refer to it as a through where you have everything from fish to elephant and birds, and that's also how Ilicate, very diverse. Yeah, very with very different requirements. It right. So what's in the zoo? What's in the zoo? So a big element for us is the automotive space and and that's a very well established vertical and and so is also smart energy. And here is where we see the largest adoption of Iot today. But then there are there are other areas. So what we see is a emerging strong market. Is The e health right now.

So great momentum here, particularly in the moment, of course, particularly the moment. So when we when we saw that during the Kovit days, other business it's a spent. The e health just went through the roof. It wasn't. Was An incredible performance this year and that one is here to last. Also, safety home alarming also driven by by covied. You would be surprised, but you see that. As people stay home. You would say, okay, nobody can break into the home, but people use a lot of time to refurbish their places and adding security, personal security to homes, has been a trend in this year. That will also continue. Agriculture just starting now. Yeah, to especially readactly with the when you saw the ubiquitous connectivity, because the the the mobile networks or sell consumers cellular is a cell. Towers are place near where the people are. So when people say they have one, nine hundred ninety five perccent coverage, it's coverage of people. But the real question to us isn't it what you have coverage by square foot of planet earth, of land, and actually agriculture, of course, by definition, is where the people aren't and so that's where you bickerous connectivity is particularly important and here we here we saw people experimenting with License Free Technology. And you know it's at some point, if you want a certain service level, agreement, a certain quality level of your of your Iot application, then you will soon realize that cellular is the best technology that you can have. Yeah, also of the element that they are right lower cost, but but not as high quality. I tell you an area that we've seen. You talked about healthcare, agriculture, others. An area that we've seen, which I believe is also being accelerated by Covid, is actually smart vending. And let me give you an example for it. When one of our customers is coster express, which is part of the cost of coffeeship chain that now...

...bought by a coca color. But coster have a vending machine which is one square meter footprint, which has ninety sensors inside it and they call it the Barista without a beard, and the reason they call it that is that it delivers a highly personalized experience like a barrister. You woke into your local store under as I do. You want your normal Cappuccino, whatever medium. But actually it does it through the machine. You identify yourself with your Qr Code to get your loyalty points and then it knows who you are and so it can personalize the experience. What's interesting about it is a disruptive business model in I only delivers you Great Cup of coffee, but in that one meeter footprint they don't have any stores that you won't find a cost of machine in a cost of store. You'll find it in a BP garage or a comedian store or and so they can enter a country within twenty four hours, put machines in, plug them in, start serving coffee, selling coffee, but they're not paying for the square footage and they're not paying for the you know, they're not topping up the milk or topping up the coffee. Somebody else is doing it because it's inside somebody's store. So what you get there is is a new form of retail, smart retail, which actually is disruptive because you know, in this case versus starbucks, you know it's not about putting a star physical store on every street corner. It's about having a point of presence or a smart retail machine all over the place, in other people's outlets or in a hotel room or whatever, and so I believe. I believe that what's happened during Covid as a lot of disruptive business models are really being accelerated. I totally subscribed to that. And what you just mentioned is probably only the beginning into aspects. or we are, we are very big and in a post a point of seal business as well, and we are working with our partners there on very innovative solutions that involve biometrics, as in facial recognition or I resk recognition, ary scan or fingerprint. Those are technologies that we...

...also own, that we have in our portfolio, as we secured a border crossings around the world. And and to combine that into cellular you open up a whole lot of new possibilities to know your customer much better and also to to do transactions contact less. That's the one aspect. And the other aspect that I wanted to mention is we have we have not touched upon the as a service type of business models. Yeah, because what we see today is that the traditional seal and forget to business that that many companies pursued in the past is transforming into more hybrid models. The one is that you mentioned today. You don't own the shop floor. You have insolute a solution of service that you're offering and and you can you can also let the one who gives you the real estate participate your business on a success basis. So either hybrid models or completely as a service oriented where the hardware, the initial investment, completely goes away and transforms into a subscription over the life cycle. So you could even think of smart energy. That becomes a complete subscription model. Or Yeah, my famous example is the connected tooth brush, where you where you define a price that that brushing teeth is worth few for a year and and then under that framework you get always replacement and brushes and so on, and you get hints about how well you brush your teeth and you can big park part of a brushing community and you can share the data with your dentist and and you know, and I think sounds crazy today, but but that's the future of the Internet of things. And and then we are in a multiconnected ecosystem where, if you take toothbrush again, such a good example because everybody has one. I hope well, you get your automated replacement for your brushes,...

...you can exchange the data with your dentist and and the company producing the toothbrush learn so much about the customer and youths that it can continue to improve the product. So what you're saying, and there is a but here, is that when we talk about digitization business processes, next generation business processes, and I'm a great believe that we're seeing acceleration now like we've never seen before. We're really talking about products becoming services, or information about how a product is being used is more valuable than the product itself. So kpex goes to OPEX. So, if you know, data is the new oil. Whichever one way you talk about it, it's about the experience and the product is just a way of delivering the experience. But I just want to put the challenge on the table. You know, I was at Cisco, as you know, for many years. I ended up running the cloud program but it can't be end and it was all about in those days trying to persuade people that, you know, the hardware is used to be hugely important but with cloud you just need a browser or on a laptop or even a cell phone, and you don't need to think about service anymore because it's all in the cloud. And everyone started thinking of you know, maybe Mark Andreson was right. Software is going to eat hardware and know it's the end of hardware. There's just going to be five big, huge server farms in the world in the dark with red lights, and suddenly all this hardware is going to go away. But the world we've just described is actually where a world where hardware is is hugely important again. I mean hardware actually is the most important thing you you build an experience with hardware. But here's the challenge. If all these companies that are making products, they all want to make turn products into services. They don't know anything about hardware. Now it's not like I don't know anything about hardware. When I wanted my mobile phone, I just bought a mobile phone. I didn't have to design my mobile phone. But now you're talking about the cost of coffee machine or the intelligent tooth broche or the...

EV charger or that whatever it is. Suddenly, as a user, I've got to think about designing a piece of hardware. It seems to be that we've suddenly gone a hundred eighty degrees and suddenly we're asking people to solve the problem they didn't need. They put they'd left behind them. Ever, we just created another barrier to Iot. No, no, no, I've don't really think so, but I couldn't. I couldn't have explained it any better than than you did. So the business models of tomorrow, they the leverage data and try to transaction now, but but to get to there there's piece of hardware needed, and we sometimes people say, Hey, hardware is not sexy. I'm I'm okay with that, but we love to solve the problem. Well, I take it even a level further. I always compare our business to plumbing. Right, so, is plumbing and exciting thing? Probably not. But what if plumbing doesn't work? Well, what if your plummer has done something wrong in your house? Yeah, see, and and, and that's exactly the problem we have seen so many of our customers or prospect sometimes only prospects. They didn't become a customer eventually because their business models failed, as they because of this. It exactly. Yeah, and in our are I said mention, we have two thousand customers when they come to us. Eighty percent of people when they first come to us come to us because they had a previous attempt at doing iot and failed, and eighty percent of the reasons that they failed where hardware reasons. So great soul, greatful customers are the best customers on this at once. You know what not to do. You need some help. Yeah, exactly, yeah, and it's yeah, we have also seen that the customers went away and said, we went into something new, we can do this better ourselves, and then came back and and and they are very happy and loyal customers now. So it's really...

...a couple of things that come to my mind immediately. So the one thing is in our space, typically we are dealing with remote assets and remote asset that that's the biggest difference to a smartphone, because if your smartphone doesn't work, you reset it, you switch it off and on and works again. Yeah, but that coffee machine that you mentioned that is sitting at a BP station somewhere in a country where you have no service set up, it has to function, otherwise your business model doesn't work and and then there's no revenue stream and then there is no customer satisfy action and then the whole thing doesn't work. So so it's the reliability aspect that we're taken care of. And the second point is, and looking at you, I mean if you have a business model that involves different types of countries and you want biquitous global connectivity, you can try to set that up by yourself. Fine, will take you a long time, and then the landscape will continue to change and evolve and you better make sure that you keep pace with that and you update all your agreements and so on, and at all or you talked to a specialist to WHO's doing that for a living. Right. So we do the hardware, you do the because colls what we really described our value proposition it, and that's why they come to us the second time round, because they thought it was easy. They then found themselves managing twenty mobile networks and thinking about to g shut off and and and battery preservation for devices. And eventually people say, you know what, it's just too complicated that I want to sell coffee, I don't want to be a hardware company. Thank you. And and maybe maybe that's a way we can sort of draw it to inclusion and say okay, so this is interesting. We've come full circle. We've now realized that hardware's cool again. But so everything goes around in the circle in life. We all know that's now hardware s cool again, important and actually...

...we also now realize why it's called hardware, because it's hard. So it is hard, but if you get it right you can deliver a phenomenal experience. If you deliver a phenomenal experience, that's the way you compete in the new normal. So let's finish by asking each other to name one customer or partner who you believe is sort of innovative in this space. And actually, I've got a second reason for asking it. It's a series of podcast and it's almost like asking you. Who should we approach to talk about this, because I think this whole area of how do you create innovative hardware when you know nothing about hardware? How do you create an hardware driven experience when you have no intention of ever understanding hardware? I think that's worth a podcast on its own. So do you have a company that you work with the youth is really innovative in terms of creating experiences for customers? Because that's really that's what people really want. They want to create an experience. It just happens we did it by hardware. Yeah, we have plenty of partners, of course, but if I would highlight one for this podcast, and it's probably seek, my connectivity in Sweden, because it's a it's a company and a partner to us that's been reinventing itself over and over again and they are extremely professional in their help. They think like like we think. You know, they they believe in the longevity aspect, into the reliability aspect and that it's better to invest brain power and energy and efforts in the beginning in order than to enjoy a long and successful business journey afterwards. So the reason why I'm also recommending them is because we've been working together, we've been together hand holding a lot of customers in that space and it's always been successful. So if you cannot rely on a standard solution that we are offering out of the box and you want to go to the next level and want to break it into the individual pieces and make it fit your application, and that's certainly a partner...

...that I can only recommend. Okay, that's great and I know what I'm going to reciprocate with as epu is a swish example. I'm going to use a swish example and this is because we do and use a projects, and I'm going to give one of my favorite projects, which always makes people smile when I when I say would you believe? Would you believe that there's such a thing as an Iot enabled nappy them or, as our American friends would call it, a diaper, and everybody immediately thinks of something else, which this isn't it? It's not measuring. What it's doing is it's actually for the care home business. So set is the world second largest paper company. They're based in Gothenburg in Sweden, and their number two to pampers world wide, and this is the adult in continence market. So people in care homes. Who? One of the instant stats that is that very few people die in care homes. They die in hospital. One of the most common reasons for going to hospital is because you you get ill and the most common thing that you get is a water infection. So in other words, a urin infection is a direct contributor to people dying in care homes. So people having continents diapers and the problem is they start to feel uncomfortable, but they don't tell the stuff because they may have dementia or outsiders or just older people are so proud they don't tell people that they're feeling sick. And so what aciity have done in this products available, you can buy it. There is a small wafer in between the paper of the diaper that measures the chemical constituents of the urine and basically doesn't alert. That says this person is exhibiting early signs of a urine infection, so that they can actually get tablets to the mentabiotics or a doctor to them before either a they know they've got an infection or be the infection takes hold. Nett effect is people live longer, and when people live longer, the business case is the care home collects more fees. Of course, from a relatives point of view it means you can access data...

...via the APP and you know check that your relatives are healthy. But you know the adults in continence market is is actually a billion dollars a year market. And so you mean there's a great example, and in my case my mother was in a care home when she was alive and with Dementia and she wore an adult nappy and I wish a care home and had this product. But that's a wonderful way where Iot really does make a difference in the lives of people and I think as an industry we can we talk a lot about, you know, technology and standards and acronyms and software and hardware, but when you actually can really bring it to life and literally in this case, is, you know, extend the life of people through Iot, then we know that it's worth solving these complexity issues because we're actually making a real contribution to to society. So I'm actually going to pause there because I don't think we can beat that. I think whatever we say after that will bring it down right for our listeners. That's the big inspirational finish. So let me do the rapper. First of all, thank you so much for being inaugural guest on the podcast. I really appreciate it. And for our listeners, please tune in again. We're going to be having a series of these very regular series of these podcasts. We're going to be looking at different elements of IOT and we'll mix it up with some vision, as we have here, some practical advice and some case that these of where we've seen that Iot is really making a difference and we hope it becomes a place to go, a destination for people to get the advice and the insight they need to navigate through this world of iote because, as Andreas said right at the beginning, the fifty billion things wasn't wrong, it was the timing that was wrong. We will get there and and the and the and if we can share advice and tips and hints on how to get there, then we hope this podcast has been useful for everybody. So thanks again Andreyas, and to our listeners. I'll talk you again on the next episode. Thanks and thank you. Thank...

...you. Thanks for tuning in to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by Si our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right rate to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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