IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 1 year ago

Shifting Markets: How IoT is Simplifying Business Processes w/ Josef Brunner


There’s a lot of hype around the potential of the IoT market, but a lot of companies focus on the wrong thing.

It’s not just about having the newest technology. It’s about making the end customer more successful through technology.

In this episode of IoT Leaders, Nick Earle, CEO of Eseye, sat down for a wide-ranging chat with Josef Brunner, CEO of Relayr.

Some topics they covered:

  • How Relayr is revolutionizing the IoT industry by guaranteeing business outcomes
  • Disrupting the insurance industry
  • Shifting the business focus to making the end customer more successful
  • How the IoT is simplifying the supply chain

If you have ideas for future episodes, input or have questions, email or connect with Nick on LinkedIn.

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts, you can find every episode here.

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned in innovation strategies that work. In each episode, you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the latest episode of the Iot leaders podcast, the podcast where we try and shine insight and light on the issues surrounding the complex world of Iot, and absolutely delighted in this episode to introduce someone who I've worked with in a previous life. What will come onto that, the CEO of Relayer, Joseph Bruna. Joseph, great to see you. Are you good? And I'm excited to have the discussion with you. I'm always excited to talk to you. Yeah, who knows where we're going to go, as the idea, and I have no idea where this is gonna go. You know, I did mention in the intro that we've worked together. And you know what? I'm asked about serial entrepreneurs, I always say, well, a God damn it. How they do it. I'm really jealous and be do I know any? And I say well, I do know one, very well, Joseph Bruner. So, Joseph, just for our listeners who perhaps might not be familiar with your global fame and track record, can you just baby explain a little bit about your history? Yeah, sure, I will keep it short so we can focus on more important topics, because this is not about me. You know, I love building companies. I do it since the age of sixteen. Actually, the interesting thing, and maybe that's that's of relevance, but a discussion today, is the starting point of my career was actually a market transformation, and, you know, one not too dissimilar to the one that we're seeing today. My parents are craftsmen, actually bakers, and we had our own bakery and back in the days, this is when supermarket started to bake their own bread and the price point was just going down and they got disrupted and they didn't didn't survive financially right and economically. So we lost our house and there was my still my inner pain and my drive and my nucleus, and that's how I got started, and this was with sixteen and then with eighteen I could buy them a new house, which is still my the biggest thing for me, and they still live in it, in this house, and it's obviously, as you can imagine, the emotional hub for me and the source of a lot of inspiration in power. But that then, you know, I didn't stop right and I had fun and obviously, I have to say I'm my high school dropout, as I started with sixteen, so there was not another career that I could envision for myself and I you know, I stood with it and I love it. I'm it's my passion and have any so far without going through for this is no more or I hate you already. I just want to have it for the record. You know, and we knew each other when I was at Cisco, and Sisco Quiet, one of your companies, but now relay and relayer is firmly in the digitization space, of which Iot is a key component. And so and and you guys are really interesting in that you have not just what you do in your clients, but you and you've been bored by meaning ree some gratulations. You saw that one. Three hundred million dollars, if I recall. Not Too Shabby, as we say, but you have a very, very interesting USP and I just have not seen anyone else even attempt this in the market. So what's relayer all about and what's your USP so we are about keeping our customers relevant, right. So we talked about transformation and how market transformations really killed the business of our of my parents, and you know that's not unique to my parents. Right. So market transformations are, you know, huge opportunity or threat, right, and...

...if you change and you that the opportunity, these mess but you got a change in a doubt, right. And the reason why I really exists. We want to keep our customers relevant. That's our purpose, our vision, our mission, why we get up in the morning. How do we do this? We try to understand the opportunity with our customers, try to understand if we can solve it and address it with technology and what the outcome of that technology deployment would be, the business case, the business outcome. And then we guaranteed, we underwrite it. Right. So you're right, and let's just say posed, because you say it so quickly and like it's no big deal. But but I just want to pose and go you under right, you guarantee a business outcome. No, nobody does that. Come on, how do you do that? Well, how do we do that? is the different question to how do we get there? And maybe we start with the journey, because the journey is, I think, a description of the complexity we see in the market, because there's, you know, there's so much complexity in all these different puzzle pieces. Right, you want to transform your business digitally. You know, your mining company, a retail I mean just name it. Every company is impacted by the transformation going on and it's so complex. Right, you have security, connectivity, devices, AI, and you're just overwhelmed as as a business executive. So and we had really we are technology company. At at the very core of everything we do, we have technology. So we try to sell technology to our business executives and they were overwhelmed with it. And then we you're doing the sales process. We thought, okay, let's let's take out the complexity and let's focus on the outcome. What do we want to achieve when we deploy the technology? What's the outcome? Why do we do it? Is What's the business case? And then, once we understood this, we said, oh, that's pretty attractive. We want to, you know, piece of their Pie. How do we get a piece of their pie whilst also making the customer successful and taking the fear of the table? And we said, you know what's screw this, let's just guarantee. You know, we take all the risk. We were entrepreneurs. There is well, our our businesses taking risks, essentially, right. That's that's why we get started. And there's another, you know, tribe out there which you know, whose business is taking risk. And these are insurance companies, right, that's also what they do. Underwriting something is taking risk of somebody else's teal and sheet or life and take it on your balanche. So here you are. It's a perfect match, if you think about it that way, right from a Thirtyzero peeth perspective. which brings me to the how do we do this? We use an insurance company, in the beginning as a partner, later on as an investor, now as our holding company. We use their their capacity, their balancheet, their skill set, the data to guarantee the promises that we make to our customers. It sounds so simple, and yet it's clearly not. How did it come about? Did you approach them or did a client sort of often clients a marriage broker in alliances in tech industry. They bring the partners together. But but can you shed any light on how it came about? It they have this brilliant insight and they found you, or what's the story? I would love to claim the fame, but I can't. So what we did is, you know, obviously really is a journey. It's not a company, it's a journey. And when we started off we had, you know, a cloud platform and we love technology, so we, you know, we try to sell technology and IT failed miserably. It was it was I call it the death by pilot experience. You know, Henry Graham here, hundred fifty there, and you don't get it to scale. And said, man, why can I scale the business? And you know, a thousand reasons. Complexity, business cases, politics within companies. I mean, I fear I could just name a trillion reasons and I'll fast forwarding,... know, on their journey. The outcome is guaranteeing the outcome. But then, you know, my there were a lot of steps in between, and one of the steps in between was that I said I need to compliment our technology. Is that because we started off as a middleware. So I needed edge capabilities and I needed AI. So I wanted to buy two companies and one of the companies that I wanted to buy was a device management company, which was actually the foundation of chief predicts, you know, larger than real air, more avenues, more people. I said, I need to buy them, but I don't have the money. So I needed to raise money to buy them, and one of the sources that I talked to was Muni agreed, and so I explained my vision to them and the hypothesis and then they said, did you ever think of underwriting? You Know Your Business that they just as that. Yeah, yeah, and I said, can you explain under the underwriting process to me, because again, I'm a high school dropout, right, I mean, I know nothing. And they explain it to me and I said, holy cow, that might be the biggest accidental, you know, wisdom that somebody ever, you know, presented to me. Yeah, yeah, and they I think they didn't know what they do what they did. So I know, and I was so pumped and excited afterwards, and I think they were too, because they invested. And then we started to poke around a little bit and play around, you know, we did little, you know, in the beginning we only guaranteed, you know, risk worth five hundred thousand and then a million. So we did baby steps. Right. We try to learn, we try to adapt, you know, in the insurance underwriting process with the promises that we make, the guarantees that we make, because we were very broad in the beginning. Now we are really focused on industrial subscription equipment as a service, paper use, right. So we be we were in a now we're, you know, laser focused and we do rifle shots. But in the beginning we were pretty broad. But it was a learning experience and they as an investorment degree as and invested in the tremendous job educating us in our customers, and it worked so well that they said, you know what, we need to own you because we are impacted by market transfer emotions as well in insurance. Won't be the same in five years, but you could be a great future right for us. You know, you are an option, and that's how we became part of Munigree and especially as if. And I did spend some time talking to re insurance companies and in the US HSB as well as part of the munigree group, and one of the things that they said to me, I started asking them about how do you price premium? So I just thought it was a fascinating process. I actually thought, and I don't mean any disrespected insurance companies, but I actually thought there was some really smart, complicated algorithms and and that they were massive insight and perhaps ai and quants and, you know, it was like financial trading. And it turned out it wasn't like that. It was based on asset classes, as I'm sure you know. I mean if you take boilers that are twenty years old and they're in buildings and there's twenty, thirty, Fortyzero of them out there, they know how many claims they've had. So basically they've got a simple risk profile of expercent of boilers make a claim and the average payout is why? But and then they have these huge tables on risk. But but then as each of these products, going back to Iot as, each of these products started becoming smart and, like I see enabled, the amount of data and the granularity that you can get from this day later is is significantly greater. And so your point about digitization and it is really important, because what they were saying to me is that you know them and other reinsurance companies is that the new entrance in their industry are actually going straight for this smart reinsurance market with...

...collecting the data, and so it's in their interest not just to sell more insurance but to actually get more data to price that insurance better, isn't it? It is, and there's there's a lot of really interesting facets around this story and you know your spot on right. So you back in the days people had so much respect for insurance companies in the thought that was matching magic happening in the machine room. And now you you know you're absolutely right. With data they become even better. Right. But there's a different side of the coin and that is specifically when you think about predictive maintenance. Now, the reason why you need insurance is because you don't know when your line is going to be. You know when it's running, when it's breaking down, you don't know what out did you're going to face. So, but now your customers, entrance customers, start to implement predictive maintenance solutions, then they go like, you know, I know when my line is going to run and when when I will face you know, issue or an equipment breakdown scenario or something don't really need that insurance policy, and if I do, how much am I willing to pay for it? Because my wrist is getting smaller, because I'm getting smarter. So we know, with with technology, you're right, the insurance companies become smarter, but the customers as well. So you see almost like a transfer of power. Yes, that being said, makes it really interesting, you know, for insurance companies to do more tech and owner company like we do. But the underwriting process is changing. So what we what we start doing now is crazy stuff like guaranteeing revenues, guaranteeing your you know, insuring companies against market risks and stuff like that. Right, and that's the next generation, and that's why it's so exciting, right, because it's so new and nobody knows where this is going, but it's certain exciting. Chinese, you know it. We turned a lot about in this podcast series and just in general about nobody knows where it's going. You know, the analogy being this is this is even beyond the Internet. In, you know, N Ninety Eight, we knew it was it could do new things, but we had no idea where it was going. And now we look back and think, wow, we had no idea these business models would be created and disrupted. And what you're talking about here is things like that, you know, the disintermediation of the supply chain and the transfer power to the consumer, because when the consumer has the data, the the the the the the brand itself of the big companies starts to decline as an asset. You know, I always deal with a certain company because they're known, they're trusted, they're big, but once the customers got the data, then the power starts to shift to the customer, and so that will create entrepreneurial opportunities, not for just a whole series of startups but for big companies and and in the case of Muni ree I must have bit when I heard about it. I remember I was in an airport when you phone me and I said Munigree. You know, all credit to them as a such a big company to actually be so innovative. So let's go on. I'm sure people are absolutely fascinated listening to this, because you are the lead, clear leaders in this space and we don't know where it's going to go, but we know it's going to be huge. So maybe you can double click and get down into the how because you know what I was going to say to you. What is the biggest mistake? You See, I think you've already answered it. This is not about technology. Technologies can down the line, isn't it? I mean it, yes, it results in technology, but technologies down the line. So you know, you have a client and the client wants to either disrupt or protect themselves from disruption or ideas. You know, you really starting off at the business level. On you, I mean you...

...must like business. You're not a global system integrator, but you're not an IOT company. Your your you kind of like a in my mind, like a mini McKinsey, but you're not need none of these things. So you have a very interesting profile of people that work for your company. Yeah, and we need that right. We did. That profile is so critically important, right because while there is great hype and aspiration around the potential of the a team market, I think there's also frustration as it didn't take off, as you know, aggressively. As you know, some hoped right and there are reasons for that. And you know, for us to focus on business in the business case is so, so important because at the end of the day it's all about the numbers right. Does it make sense? It's not about the it's not a beauty contest terms of technology and it's not not a feasibility test. Can I do this right? It's about does it make sense? And there's a there's a few questions that are really, really important, and one is, you know, how can I make my customers more successful? And I think everybody totally independent of where you are in the supply chain, in the ecosystem. That's the key question, and I'm just a clarification. Are you talking about your customers, customers, or relay as customers? I'm talking about everyone. Right at the everyone needs to because we are all serving our customers and that's why we exist. Right, our customers might change right. You know, if you think about very complex production processes or supply chains, you will see you have ten different project steps or you know different you know, twenty different players in a market, from an idea to a product, from an idea to a building, from an idea idea to a pizza right, delivery, supply chain, production, you know, support, just name it. But there's one customer, there's one person, one entity at the end of the line who pays everybody else in between is focused on delivering something to their customer, the end customer. That's call it the end customer for the sake of simplicity. But there is you know, in if a supply chain or an ecosystem has ten different steps, you probably have any different customers in between, right, customer Bender Relationships? Yes, is so what you have to do, I think, and you mentioned this, to transfer of power. What you have to do is totally independent where you are in the process chain, is like, okay, who is the end customer, the one who's getting the equipment, the gear, the part, the car, the the transportation service, just named it, and you know what is the problem of the entity and how can I make that entity, that company customer, more successful? And then you try to come up with a solution for the problem that you know the end customer or the customer. I'm not talking about consumers and talking about industrial customers. They know you're trying to come up with a solution. And then that's the business case and then you go, okay, now I solve it more efficiently than today by using tools such as technology, such as underwriting, such as finance, and this is where the uniqueness that we have comes in. But I don't want to talk about us, but about the market, because you need people that understand their business case and how to shape it. So you we have the business case and we like, okay, we can solve their problem more efficiently for that customer and can make that customer more successful. And this is, you know, in the context of equipment as a service, there's this you know, unknown or this is there's a question that I'm getting as all the time is how can you make your customer more successful, the customer of Your Oem's, as an example, more successful? But how, at the same in the same time, how can the Om make more money? It's because you cut out eight other players of the market and you eat their lunch. You know,...

...there's no services companies anymore. You know, there might be, you know, different facets of supply chain, of other satellite companies that are there to support the process. So you're trying to identify, identify inefficiencies in a market, come up with a solution that addresses that inefficiency holistically, makes the end custom more successful, shifts power to both the OEM as well as the end customer. And I'm finishing my monolog right here by saying. And that's where it's interesting, because everybody, even that supplied chain, everybody that is part of the process, can take the lead. But you have to move that. You know, it's a great monolog by the way, when you know it from my history. When I was I was over in still in value and the whole Internet broken. Lots of people were talking like this and they were saying, you know, it's totally radical. You know, the disintermediation. The people who weren't talking about the technology, they were talking about the disintermediation. You know, you can book your own airline ticket, you can buy you can buy a book. It started off as a book. You can buy anything that's digital. Now it's anything that's physical, but it was. It seems to me that that was a pretty simple disintermediation. At the supply chain you were basically distant media, maybe one or two, you know, blockbuster with the shops or whatever. And what you're already saying now is that the thing about Iot as one of the enablers, and you have a lot of other ones, i. Ai and whatever, but assets, the assets as a service, is it is that it's actually mass disintermediation. I mean your point about. There's no service company. It's because you are not just disintermediating the supply chain. Of You said it to a maybe a distributor, a cells it to be be as a resellers be sells it to see, sees the end user, you self direct you also charge for it on a per usage basis. But you put but but it. It's other things as well. It's you know, there is no independent service company because you're getting the data all the way back as the manufacturing company. You're getting the data. That means that your supplier can remotely diagnose the device find out what's wrong with it before they fix it. I mean I I explain this by wife and she says, well, why doesn't that happen here? We have a contract with British Gas here in the UK. They actually don't just sell gas. They are they'll do maintenance for all your equipment in your house. They advertise that one TV, but the way the process works is that something breaks, Dishwasher, say you phone them, they send somebody out, scheduling and all that hassle. They then look at it and say, Yep, it's broken. Actually, we know that. That's why we called you. And they say Oh, I think it's that. I think it's this, right, I think it's this. Okay, I'll be back. Then yet another appointment. The Guy Appears maybe two weeks later with a part and you hope it's got it right. Well, the point about that is that if the device was smart, and you know our dish rusher has a controller in it, I mean that it has lots of electronics in it, you could actually remotely diagnose and actually arrive with the part. And and that simple con content of of taking mass amounts of money out of the warranty process is an adjacent disintermediation of the supply chain and, as you say, we're now looking at radically new business processes, simplification of manufacturing, simplification of Supply Chain, simplification of Warranty, simplification of marketing, because if you can get data back from every customer on how they're using every product, you actually know which features are using, which features they're not using. So you can actually manufacture simpler products and only sell certain products to certain customers because you know they they...

...only want there, the only ones who want those features. So it seems like what were embarking. Going back to what you said earlier, we have no idea what's going to happen, other than it appears to be much bigger than what has happened so far. Yeah, and I think that that is really, really important because it means that this will impact in, you know, some markets pretty significantly. You know manufacturing as an example, or what you just mentioned, building management, building controls, building maintenance. If you look into these markets, it's fascinating because you have, you know, twentyzero players in these markets. All Right, why? Because the markets are fragmented. Fragmentation leads to inefficiencies and now you use technology and other means to address the inefficiencies and you do it at scale, you will consolidate these markets. You will see what we saw in tech. The winner takes it all, mentality and approaches and results, because you can do things more efficiently, you will have a better price whilst also having a better service, and it's impossible for smaller microplayers, service companies in that example, to cope. So you will see a massive shift in these markets if you deploy your assets wisely and correctly. But you meet new assets. Right back in the days you had a brand, back in the days you had a balance sheet, back in the days you could afford doing things the enable that you just talked about earlier. Technology is certainly a really important enablers, specifically in the context of Iot, but we should not forget it's also about free capital. Everything we do around paper, use models, equipment as a service, industrial subscription, whatever the headline is you're using, it's only possible because money is for free. All right, and nowadays, you know, we talked about minigree before. One of the US piece they had was the balance sheet. You know, two and thirty billion balanch sheep. You can take a lot of risk for that money. You know, look at some of the really aggressive and really large head funds. You know how much do they have under management? You see that USP is starting to become less important and that that is something you see throughout all industries. And my biggest concern when I talk to proud traditional companies is they don't understand the shift in value when it comes to the assets that they have. I'm not saying they don't have value. They have customer day customers, they have access to customers, knowledge, experience, talent. They have a great starting position, but they focus sometimes on the wrong in brackets outdated assets. And this is you know, you just talked about your example, in with your building. Another employee, for my employee US Chun Clifford, you know who, you know. You know address their problem specifically in the building management with learn that screw this right process, that that nick just explained. This inefficient. So I'm introducing guaranteed building performance as a service to the market and I'm taking out all of these inefficiencies and making my, you know, customers, more successful. And and the power is in the simplicity of the offering, not in the simplicity of the technology, but the audition actually, and I spoke you know, John would be probably a great guy for a future podcast, but maybe give a little preview, perhaps if we can get John On. I did speak to John Again. Yeah, and he was bought the Cisco crew back in the day and I was absolutely fascinated by what he did. It was very it was it was so elegant in its simplicity, very similar to the way you describe Your Business and and...

...and I think that's a pattern in general for successful their businesses. They're just simple and you just get what they do. And he said, yeah, he said You twentyzero people maintain buildings and what assets do they have where they have customers? But they also have a lot of engineers, field engineers, and it's inherently inefficient. So by buying a couple of companies and just putting some smart technology in and connecting the legacy assets, you totally transform the mode. You just completely disrupt it. And, by the way, you've got a field sales force already there. They're just called engineers. And the other thing I was thinking of, as you were saying it, is that is this issue of Fragmented Fragmented Industries Are Ripe for disruption. I think that's always been true. I'm in, you know, in our own world in Iot. One of the messages that we give to customers, and you know this because we've partnered together, but but one of the messages is look, the cellular market, the Mobile Network operator market, is actually one of the world's last great fragmented industries. I mean there's eight hundred and twenty five mobile network operators. They all have proprietary sins. They're all saying, put my Sim in and I can give you a bit of roaming, but not complete roaming, and and so basically it's an industry that's built from the players out, but when you look at it from the customer in, the customer just once connectivity. And so you know, that was the brilliance of our founders, not me, I came in after this, but the brilliance of our founders to say the only way to solve that fundamental lack of interoperability, which leads to incomplete connectivity or added cost because you got to swap sims all the time, is to actually abstract the problem into an independent layer and have a like a super aggregator in the cloud that will bring all the players together. And when you do that you enable totally new business models, like the ability to have a global product that has connectivity it, which is a completely different concept to which mobile network operator should I choose, and based on a proprietary model. So I think that all all industries, and I've said this before, all the industries start off, and specially tech, start off as proprietary and ultimately it's user demand that forces interoperability and standards. And when you get interoperability and standards, that's actually when the mass adoption occurs and that's what disruption is. The you you have a really, really good point here, and I would like to complement what you just said. You know, when it comes to the brilliance of your founders. And I would like to add one thing. When you talk to the big Tel codes, you you talk about Iot and innovation. You're right, it's about selling some cards, but what it's really about is protection. You know, I can't do this. You know around roaming. You know, because I make a lot of money with Rome. I can do this because it's a really important revenue stream. Oh, I can't do this yet because it's a it's a barrier, a market protection. You asking a different questions, is like, what do these companies out there need? Yes, and then you solve the problem. So if you flip this around, in an ideal world, you and I would not be needed because the innovation would come from the incumbents. That was never the case, with a few exceptions, typically younger companies, right, not companies that are fifty, sixty years old, because they think inside out, yes, while innovators think outside in. Yes, and and I used to say in the first way that the innovation that if you actually want to know how a company will behave talk to their CFO. And people said O. What do you mean? Because it's the point that you're making. If you look at, you know, when the first way that the Internet happened, and you know, using this as a story to reaffirms what's happening or not happening now.

When the first way that the Internet happened, certain companies embrace the cloud and certain companies didn't. And actually, interestingly, certain tech companies and went to cloud and certain tech companies didn't, and there was a complete change in the pecking order of those that didn't. An you think, why did certain really big tech companies is not embrace the cloud, Internet, etc. Because they they were in that business anyway. And the answer is because their current revenue was coming from the legacy products. And so all the behavior, all the management systems, all of the controls, all of the incentives, all of the commission was all geared around the management certain the revenue flow from existing products. And you know, when you and I were at Cisco, that was called boxes, and you know it was really hard to do, to to do change management, to go from products to annuities, and even though everybody intuitively, of course they got it. They're all smart. A small as hell, but it's really, really difficult, which gives the the startups and inherent advantage because they don't have a legacy. You know, it's the you know, God built the world in seven days, but he didn't have an installed base to begin with. And and that's why, again going I think menigree have actually brilliant because they are a very big I mean they are are huge, top five. I believed their mess right. But what they did, I think, brilliantly, is they were an are aware of the strength, of course, but they also know who they are and who they are culturally. So when we we had was not the only acquisition offered that we here. But what was really attractive to me was that day said from the get go, if we buy you, we are not going to integrate you. I mean you would die, right. I mean if you if we integrate you in some of the oldest company in the world, are you do? You would die at terrible death. And that understanding and that self reflection, you know, I have a lot of respect for all right, because you, I mean absolutely, be aware of your strength, but be aware of your, you know, weaknesses as well. Then you make the best choices right, and that is that self reflection, you know, is something that is extremely healthy when it comes to business questions in general. Right, and, as you just said, intrinsically, a lot of the executives know what the right thing would be, and that's why why I'm so excited about the, you know, market transformation in general, because there's a lot of reasons why they can't do it. It's as simple as a pay check. I mean, you incentivize you people to do certain things. Yeah, this starts with the board. The board incentivised the executive team and then it flows down. Changing a system like this will take the years, yes, and in years you can build pretty successful, massive disruptive companies, and you can, and you can in this business. You can go to business in months. Yeah, you know, I always enjoy Chacenge, Josef and I. We can go on for hours, but we won't. I I why don't we sort of bring this to a conclusion by a couple of questions? I really wanted to ask you where's all this going to go? I mean, let's let's get the crystal ball out and stare at it. I mean, the obvious answer is we don't know, but if we had to guess, the disruption that we're seeing is is huge. It's we've talked about the fact that it's actually many times bigger than the first level of disruption that we saw. Let's just usually the Internet as the trigger for that. So that itself is kind of scary. We talked about companies going out of business and new companies rising A and we talked about the inability of of big companies to embrace the change and fragmented industries that need to be drive interoperability in standards, particularly regard to Iot. What's your view of other than the fact that it's...

...a huge market opportunity for companies that are in this space, what's your view of of where this all could go? It is? Do you see radical disruption and new new companies rising to the for as leaders, attacking the large incumbents, or do you believe that the large incumbents, or certainly a percentage of them, can embrace this and thrive? But the way I see this is almost like a waterfall. I think the driving forces working integration, you know, to simplifying the process chain that we just discussed in players today, two players in the future, you know, easier way of describing vertical integration, the vertical integration will lead to consolidation of Hutually fragmented market and to winner takes it all mentality. So where you have twentyzero players, tenzero players, you might have ten in the future. Where you have two hundred Om's, you might have three, all of them offering outcome based services. Paper, use, paper part just name it. Then will change the landscape pretty significantly. It will have a huge impact on the GDP of industrial countries such as UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, you know, companies with a strong industrial manufacturing backbone will either win and strive or suffer. I think some of them will suffer because they don't move quickly enough, which will lead to a shift of wealth to fewer companies. The general wealth of you know, specifically in Europe or very wealthy countries such as Germany, the average weelve will go down. We will have significantly more unemployment as we're not moved, we are fat, we are lazy, we're chief worry officers, we're not moving quickly enough, and that's true for Europe in general, I think. And to summarize, you know that statement, you know it's it's not a surprise because it happens constantly. You know, five hundred years five years ago, China was the global market leader. There were the marine leaders of the world and then the Netherlands in the UK, started to build ships for global trade. And then, you know, the Chinese said, you know, these ships are too expensive and they became fat and lazy and then, you know, a hundred years later they were broke. Now, you know, fast forwarding four hundred years, they're hungry again, they're aggressive again, we are lazy, we're fat. So it's a back and forth. We shouldn't be surprised because it happens in history all the time. But the human race is interesting because we don't believe what we don't like right, even if there's evidence. Yeah, so that that's that's how I see nobody likes change. Wow, that's a big subject to finish on. That sounds like we got two or three future podcast there. We're not talking about disruption of supply chains, Petk, about descriptions of companies, disruptions of industries and and potential disruption of countries to do with their attitude of who the winners are going to be in the future and the whole issue of the emergence of Asia and that's something which we're very aware of. We doing a lot of work in Asia. It is incredible what they're doing and the and the insight that they have out there. They're already thinking about what this is going to be, especially as all the products are made out there. From an IOT point of view, you know, the embedding of the connectivity in the product as a feature, not a Sim card which, as you know, with the I sim, is going to go into the module. There isn't going to be a SIM card in the future. That is going to happen and they putting that module...

...onto the PCB of an IOTI product. That isn't going to happen in the West. That's going to happen in the in the east, the low cost manufacturing, which is an incredible asset that they bring to bear on this whole issue because inherently the products that they're making, they're the ones that be capturing the data and transmitting the data. So lots of issues they're in the future and some very, very innovative business models coming out of the east. But unfortunately, Joseph, we have to leave it there. I normally ask people for who else you could recommend for the podcast. But you've already said around John at learned around ther facilities, buildings management, so I think we've probably pick up on that. And I all sometimes say, tell me one thing about you that the people don't know, and you open with that. Ruined my ending because I did for all the years I've known you, I didn't know the story about your parents and the bakery, and that is such a nice story. So it I have to ask you, how the hell did you earn enough money in two years, if I got it right, quit school at Sixteen, became an entrepreneur, bakery gun bust, price of bread dropped, your first experience of disinc mediation and managed by a house in two years, if I've got that right. Yeah, what did you do? Trying to focus on an offering that the market needed at that time. And this is you know, this is going back a few years now. You know, this is the time of UN net if you remember them, and security was not a topic back in the days, right. So you know, people's were connecting networks and systems and they did not introduce barriers or security mechanisms, introduce systems. So even a person who had as little talent as I could add value when it came to security. So my first two companies were security companies. The first one was a service company. That's where you know that subsidized the house, so to speak, and the next one was a security product company, and I was just lucky enough that timing was my friend, let's put it that way. It's amazing how many really, really successful people are humble and claimed that it was luck in timing. And I think the rest of US know that there's probably another ingredient as well, but I won't embarrass you by focusing on that. Instead, I'll finish here. Thank you so much, Joseph, for your insights and your vision. Congratulations on your model and, of course, selling the company and the destruction that you are now driving as part of the meeting Greek group as a CEO relayer and for our list us. I hope you enjoyed this this episode. Certainly I did. I thought it was absolutely tremendous. There's so much we could unpack for future episodes there, but in the meantime, tune in again for the IOT leaders podcast. We will have moguests on sharing their insight, their experiences and their stories indeed of their life and what they've learned around digitization and Iot. Joseph, thanks again and I'll talk to you soon. Thank you very much. Was a pleasure. Thank you, make thank you. Thanks for tuning in to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by SI. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at SICOM. You've been listening to iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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