IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode · 1 year ago

Optimization & Disruption in the IoT Journey w/ Miroslaw Ryba

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

IoT has the power to disrupt and transform business processes. The only limit? Your imagination.

On a recent episode of IoT Leaders, I chatted with Miroslaw Ryba, Partner & Global IoT Leader at EY, about taking IoT to the next level.

What we talked about:

  • Business processes that can truly be transformed with IoT
  • Best practices for innovation with data
  • Elevators, vaccines, eco-friendliness, and the sugar tax
  • How data disruption transformed Royal Caribbean

If you have ideas for future episodes, input, or questions, email IoTLeaders@eseye.com or connect with Nick on LinkedIn.

This discussion with Nick Earle was taken from our show IoT Leaders. If you want to hear more episodes like this one, check us out on Apple Podcasts.

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from Si that shares real IOT stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned and innovation strategies that work. In each episode you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot, digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Welcome to the IOT leaders podcast with me, your host nickel, the CEEO Besi, and for those of you who are new to this podcast, this is about giving you insight, information, best practices learnings about how to deploy a successful iot project, and in each episode I interview one of the leaders in iote, and in this episode I'm delighted to introduce Dr Miroslav Riba, who runs global Iot for Ey and mirror. Welcome very much, and welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you for the immutation. Will have to be here great now. I know you've got quite some experience, so maybe just for our listeners and maybe you can just give me an overview of your role at Ey and how long you've been involved in Iot. Yeah, sure, sir. Actually, that's maybe be shocking. For for some people, you gus e Wi is most associated with financial advisory, Frenchial services, tax or transactions, but actually it's why we are working, and I'm working with Irt for over twelve years, and we started two thousand and eight. It was long, long before now this topic became high as it is right now. And we're thinking first about now purely security. hottle secured the whole IOT ecosystems. How to build was going the next step. You know our thinking, and we sat a small team. Now we reached the size of over twozero people around the globe which are IOT experts in this domain, and my role here is actually to lead this practice and make sure that this three thousand or turn to six thousand couple of years from now. Okay, well, we need to unt pack that. There's a lot in there. I'm going to I'm going to start off with actually the date part of it, and you're right, I mean I and we talked about this in previous podcasts, is that you said two thousand and eight, and because in two thousand and eight, as our listeners will know, it wasn't even called Iot. It was called M to end machines, machine or scarred a factory floor. We were connecting machines and then around two thousand and eleven we started saying, oh it's going to be Iot and the famous prediction that we fifty billion things connected by two thousand and twenty. And here we are, just beginning of two thousand and twenty one. We're eleven billion. So you know, we missed hugely and maybe we can start off there. In terms of what happened. And you know, from my perspective of instant in your view, and you have a very global view, it seemed like the first wave was clan sick,...

Jeffrey Moore, precus am. You know, innovators earlier adopts products that were always that cool. You know, I can connect my tooth brochure starting in my in my local garage this this, yeah, and look at this, what I can make it do with a button. And it's like yeah, but what? Why do you want that? I don't know, it's just cool. So you know, for the big companies, and Ey it's huge, multi billion dollar company, and you work with multi billion dollar clients. Where are the true business outcomes? I mean where's the money for these clients? Is it just smart enabling products, or is it much more fundamental to do with their business processes, as it said? You know, it started in in the garage. This whole line set of building Iot was first driven by group of passionate people who are trying to know, to change something. They saw this new opportunity on the market and no technology was catching up. Suddenly we realize that, you know, technically speaking, you can do almost everything. Originally, this industrial Iot, or machineto machine, as US he said, in two thousand and eight, thousand and ten, was kind of a playground for trying to change something, to introduce new technology and new solutions to the existing ecosystems. And then was the first wave. You know, the first day was to put in whatever you can to your your ecosystem, to your called, to landscape, and see, you know, how this can improve the busy is how you can get additional value, additional enablement, thanks to the emerging tech IOT collectivity. And this was kind of a first wave. Then the big challenges started. You know, the whole question mark. Okay, I have so I hopegingus environment. So how am I able to protect it? How To make sure that, you know, this sort environment is reliable. So this basic questions lad various companies to watchally start asking questions. Okay, so what's next? I can technically everything, I can create a lot of the market, whatever solition I want, but fundamental question is, okay, how am I going to maintain it, how am I going to protect it and how am I going to eventually make money on this holy investment that clearly is associated with with IRT projects or IRT each other's. It's in the phrase that because it's a little bit like saying, you know that people started off with the Wa and even the how can. They went straight into the technologies, and I'm sure we'll talk about that later, but but a lot of people forgot to ask the question why. I mean why would it benefit me if I could connect it? Cause I can, yeah, because I can, because it's cool. Look at this. You know the engineer is it was driven by the engineers and starting off, like Simon Sinnaki, know he says, you know, sort off with the why why are you doing this? What value does to give to customers? So you...

...know, with threezero consultants working with clients, what are the business benefits? If you're in front of a scenic directors at xo level in a large company. What are the business benefits in terms of business processes? Back in business processes, because we talk a lot about digitization, what types of business processes can truly be transformed, as opposed to just doing cool things by connecting products? That's that. It should that. Now this question why starting slowly starting to emerge and this IOT journey actually is changing, from the level of engineers, the level of the the sea suite and at the level of the history. The only question is, you know, how am I going to make money? So why am I going to suppose some of them as supposed to invest in the via this alization? Yeah, and yeah, the sization is actually today everything is digitalized and especially now with this all the lockdowns and people not able to work permanently in different locations. There's more and more investment plants or they need to actually make sure that we are just lizing all the processes which originally were actually assumed that they have to be made in person, manually on sites. And now we are talking with different heavy industry clients how to make sure that some of the work in the field and shop floor can be done remotely, how to apply merging tech, whole lends or up wanted reality to enable the operators provide or operate the equipment, the machines. So there is lots of the use cases. But when we're talking the decision makers, what are the use cases or the business cases and what a value they can drive, it's always the the fundamental question which eventually comes up is what are your main paint points? What what is the way you want to optimize? So this is the first, first IMENSION, but there's a second dimension of the salization. Bringing Iot to the big corporations is actually the whole aspect of disruption, because you know you can optimize the existing environment. This is in processes, but this just gives you some little informations, improvement, incrementally benefit. Yeah, exactly the key thing and the key opportunity form. Various clients actually looking for this instruction and there was a side that we did quite recently and it's shows that roughly fifty percent of CEOS will live that the company did enough in terms of distruction of their business. So there is still huge UNTAUGH businesportunity to disrupt the existing formable in business and that's exactly what we are trying to work up our class to look for this area woror can disturb the current...

...business processes the way they think about the raving histories. And then when we are at the stage of finding this areas of disruption, we finally start Baling Technology. So for us the whole topic of IRT partly change from their tactical aspect to the business driven technology enabled solutions. This how we think about ID teach and and I think that's a really good point. And I know you know here at Si we got we got two thou pure Iot play and we have two thousand customers. But it is very, very common people to start off with saying hey, I want to connect a device. Leave you do connectivity, global connectivity. When I connect the advices like and we have to trade us our business, the death presales and sales. People to say, well, can you tell me about Your Business Case? And in seventy eight percent of the time the person who's asking as the question doesn't know. And I think your point is start with the disruption first, then look at what the business benefit could be, either cost saving or competitive new business model innovation, and then eventually land on the technology and it's it's the opposite way around to where a lot of the if not all of the projects have been so far. It you know, I was thinking as you are speaking. It's very analogous to the first wave of what the Internet itself is is that we started talking about html and web browsers and cool stuff, but ultimately the companies that really succeeded with a people are disrupted business models. I mean the obvious example Netflix today, completely disrupting the Amazon, disrupting uber, disrupting transportation, air bb disrupting hotel business, where people just say I could actually create a brand new model. So you're operating by looking at the disruption. So let's assume that we you have a client, not on an instruction, but the disruption need to be followed by a whole value created around the product and the know, just just give you the example. You know now we are talking about when you whenever, whenever you open to on TV, there's news about covet. Now the whole world is talking about corvet and the vaccination, right, but look what's happening with with that, with the vaccine. You have expect scene, but you have a product. But technically, what I was thinking about it you could build the whole ecosystem around the product itself, where with the incremental cost of maybe one year or some because not the current price of the fisor is at Twenty fifteen pounds, twenty US cent perfect seers. Yeah, so when you when for a for Modernis a bit more for for us as a neck guides, let's well last. So for one of those compans, and the competition is growing. There is more and more products that are in the work state. Yeah, for one of the products is they are very competitive. They are vaccine into the disease. But when you could...

...apply this additional layer of the service around the vaccine, you could provide the blockchain traceability of the of the containers to make sure that the temperature was was properably or optimize the supply chain for the deliver exactly. And it's then you have a when, when you're vaccinated, you get you can check. Yeah, what a blockchain side you know if this vaccine those you are getting, is three. Actually the whole chain was Yesso, an adverse reaction and work backwards to the batch exactly. Not Be about great example, it would not be about the vaccine, because they're all about ninety three, ninety four percent. It would actually be about the business, the logistics, the supply chain. The traceability in the data would determine who the winners are exactly. And and the end, you could go once to further this. You would know exactly what vaccine you took and you are as sure that this vaccine was probably transfer transported, so it's fully effective. And then they can associate this, the Stag, with your personal idea or or your social resurance. I and you know, you have the whole ecosystem built around the product. And now we're not talking about not asking yourself, okay, am I going to do? To choose modern our fires there or suff the neck or and the other? I'm choosing the one which gives me the whole benefit. where I am, you know, emerged by the whole ecosystem around and around the vaccine, and this gives the company which lashes this additional service, you know, huge competive advantage on the market and for me is as a user, you know, I have a choice and to hear have additional benefit would show, let's let's be honest, when you're talking about the vaccine which I would take if actually so. Now I have to choose. We why I want and the price is not the issue here around. So there is a room to actually implants this additional ecosystem aro on around the vaccin itself. Yeah, it's it's interesting this issue. It comes back to the question is going to ask you, which is about the data and the power of vast new amounts of data that the IOT, the connectivity part of Iot, is creating, turning products into experiences, but it's creating vast new amounts of data and that data can be used in completely different ways. I mean, I was reminded there we were working with a very large Palette company. Me Say that who they sell physical products. They are Palets, but they want to turn itself into an information and information company selling information to their clients as to where their clients assets are, because their clients assets, machine parts, carpets, are sitting on top of Palettes to Rod and sell them. The Palette embed the tracker inside the Palette and then tell the clients that's the granularity of supply chain data that you're referring to. In that supply chain part of that example, they actually have more information than their clients because they always know where the Palette is so then would sell the information and so the in the data become is more valuable...

...than the physical product. But they've actually they started by saying what is the disruption that we could apply? And the disruption would be to transform myself into an information company as opposed to a Palette Company. And so I think the big companies are now moving in to this sort of area. So let's talk about the data that vast amounts of data are now being used. What are the best practices that you see in terms of people using data? Perhaps you have some examples of where people are using data in innovative ways in your clients to actually optimize these supply chains or manufacturing or warranty processes or back end process that you're talking about, as opposed to nabling product? Any examples you can share with as a of course, and actually what you said, what you said is is actually crucial that the turn of this data is is driving the whole ecosystem and with the easiness of implementing additional sensors to get at this data, to get the more comprehensive view. You know, the data is not the issue anymore. The only issues your imagination, how you can use the data to build, to build the use kiss and services. And this what you mentioned, that your pilot company is strying to be data to even data Regulata Company, not a pilot company. You know that's kind of a more and more common pattern and the market. But we can still remember that at the end of the day, they are transmitting the Paletts. Yes, sort of Pisis. So the core bet of these two needs to stay. And you know, we had this fantastic project, super challenging for office elevators. And when you realize the scale of this company, you know they operate two million lifts around the globe and they every day they provide two billion unique use their rights. So stistift speaking, you know, every person in the world is in the odds elevators twice a week, statistically, of course, because some of them are not never in their lifetime in the office elevator. Some of them think like hundred's has a day. But they offer two billions unique rinds per day and there's a huge, huge network of leafts. So now the question was, okay, how can they leverage this this huge potential? Right, they provide the service, which is the left, right and they know everything about their lives, they know where they are, they know what conditions they are so what additional extra value they can get out of it? So we couldn't for them kind of a study where we identified with them or hundred different use cases how they can generate additional value based on the data from their lifts. And it's a secret. A hundred different examples of how they could use the data. Is that you said? A hundred different examples?...

Yeah, you know, for example, well, that's the cases was, you know, based on this reach they had, they could actually monitor the condition of the buildings where the lists are are rating and this additional revenue, this could be digital revenues to for for the you know, they have infrastructure from the basement to the roof. So technically sticking I think some kind activity features. They could become the five g provider in the in the areas where there, when do you get and they already there right buildings, facilities management. I we were talking to a lift company for Americans, friends and Elevator Company, and they were saying about China and whether you've heard this, example in China, but I was going to say pre COOVID, but they're powering on. So the probably still doing it in China, where you have like a luxury restaurant on, say the eighth floor. The idea of the walls the lift become digital advertising spaces because it takes you two minutes or whatever to get to the top and that your captive market. And if they know you're going to the luxury restaurant, they know that you're a high network in the yeah, and the idea is almost like if you can identify yourself with the phone in some way, they can pick up with through your phone. You may want to get loyalty points or access check into the restaurant on the way up, but they know who you are now and then they can start targeting advertising to you. So actually, to your point about an elevator might be not just a means of transporting people up and down, it might be a way of doing facilities management. In their mind, they were saying an elevator is actually a personalized advertising capsule which is going to show you the menus, but also perhaps there's a range of luxury goods they're going to advertize to you. So they way it's this explosion of data and I like the phrase you said you're only limited now by your imagination, and so I think the theme that we're both saying here is don't start with the technology. It's sort of a hard thing for Tech Company think. Don't take up after the possible. Start off with the disruption. Look at the business case. How could you enable the business case? And then you suddenly realize with all these sensors, actually you probably can enable the business case. So it's sorts with the sort of an imagineering type process. The issue of China, I move on mirror over. Can the issue of China, and of course they're a different privacy. I'm sure some of our listen say are yeah, but you know, identifying yourself the elevator in China they let you do that because there's different privacy regulations and and that brings the and that's true. But the privacy of change changing. You know. Look, yeah, look now how either we are right now to give up our privacy. Yeah, we're definitely to share companies or, you know, in some kinties you have to give out your privacy just to be able to edit it to the star rant. Because, yes, you are at a through we covid. We covid. We've alved call. Thirdly, yeah, yeah, so when you have to, you will...

...give it up. So the regular it's tough for the regulators, isn't it? Because in two ways, what is the privacy, the data issue? But also, I've heard some people talk about as we have this explosion of devices. We're actually and we talked in a previous podcast about devices that go on parcels for truck. You took about the covid vaccines, you know, tracking real time, track and trace, Palettes, parcels, frozen food, killed food. We're creating things which are almost like disposable devices, especially if it's sort of box of frozen crab legs or whatever, and so you know, we are actually exposing more data and we are actually creating more things. So you know, when you talk about China and people say, oh well, you know, yeah, they have different privacy laws in China and people will volume, will give up their data voluntarily. But, as you say, people are giving it a voluntarily all the time and with covid that's accelerating, which raises the issue of the regulator and what role the regulator will play on a variety of issues. It seems like the regulator as a time they're playing catch up all the time. I mean this thing is moving so quick and yet it has to be regulated. So what is your experience and your belief as to what role the regulator may play in the future in this explosion? Iot, what do we see? Are other blow that a great time to Ketch up with this new trance and your you changes in the in the in the markets, and definitely the regulators are seeing the need of introducing some new ways of dealing with all the aspects of privacy of the data. And know when whenever you go anywhere, you know your data is transmitted with you. So there is your location is obvious, your your preferences are shared. So the regreaters are aware of it and you know, more and more people are willing nowadays to give up their privacy for for some benefits, and you can see it all the way around. And the other thing is, when you're talking about the regulators, they are clearly finding their role in this, in this new ecosystem. And one of the things we just support and hear from the from the whole society perspective, is echo friendliness. And you mentioned, you mentioned about the sensors. There's more and more devices. So there's always a question mark, you know, what to do with all the devices which are a broken or not use anymore whatever, making a problem? Yeah, there's. There's a huge is a Huture, huge problem and from runtal friendliness, that's a huge playground for for the regulator to make sure that, you know, the ender this, the Sdent, from the environmental perspective. They they produce some regulations to actually, you know, help or enforce this proper ways of dealing with the with the digital waste. And you know, you can take a look at the what's happening in different different content, different...

...geographies day to using this sugar text just to force or enable people to reduce the consumption of sugar. So there's an economical factor. That clinical way to force you to think, am I going to buy a product with a sugar so I'll have a diabetes, I will impact the healthcare system and okay, it's tasty but it's super expressive, so maybe I'll buy cheaper product with more healthier yeah, right. So the same concept could be adapted to the to the IOD space, and you know that would be kind of an additional factor for the companies. You know, I'm going to use the cheap at quality sensor or the digital device which is tax additionally with this second digital IOT sugar tax? Yeah, or am I going to use this selfdisposing quiet sensors which are much or atomic click of friendly, but they are much more expensive in the terms of production. Yeah. So it's difference in the causal production of the College Vergip of friendly sense or versus the regular one. Would be balanced by this additional, additional tax and will be good for everyone, for the budgets of of countries, especially with all the stimulus that all the world is is printing money in our days. Plus it will have great impact on the on our planet and turning by printing people listening thing in our earth. Can you have an environmental the friendly device? In actual and we're probably going to make this a subject of a future podcast, but we're now seeing IOT devices being printed. I mean literally they are. You print the circuit, you print the battery, you print the sensors and everything lascinating the area. And then the idea is, if you can print it, can you actually make it recyclable and can you make the other components compossible? So it's a whole new area which we're on at the moment. So let's finish them by talking about some innovative case studies that we've we've each seen here at SI. We fourteen years old as a company. We've got tons of case studies. I always try and introduce one, one cool case study podcast, but let me start with you. Are there any examples of companies that you've worked with that you think are doing it well, that aren't started, didn't start with the data, that started with the disruption, perhaps, that have managed to get through the working out how to use the data and are actually now in market with some innovative iot solutions that you think are making a difference out there. Yeah, I'm just thinking which case to choose. But no, we were with various clients were trying to disturb or disruptive do a way of the business. But the case which I believe it's super powerful and I know it can be also found on the public, public places, Israel. Caribbean. We're working for a Caribbean for a couple of years now and this the clad actually changed completely the the whole way of providing in the service on the under on...

...the cruise. So before, before they dropted, this the screws cruise business. They knew everything about you before you ship the ship, the planet, the ship, but after you board it, you know there were different product connectivity on the on the on the ship, because it's got to because for a diy box. So there's always issue for the connectivity. So we working with with them. We actually disrupted all the way how they how the user journey starts, from the moment you come up with the idea I will go for a cruise to the moment when you yet board the ship, and then you you you have all that different enablement during the whole journey on the reds. Yeah, and then when you when you disembarks, embarked in the ship. So so that was a that was a great journey that we went together with a Caribbean where we build this, use cases and we implemented this together with them. So so now, from the perspective that off the real Caribbean, they are able to adopt or adjust the offer to the unique personal needs of each of the passengers on the on the crewise, and from the personal perspective of person who is buying the screws. You know, you have all this digito sphere, digital ecosystem where you can act and to find yourself and choose what service is, what features you want to you want to gather, you want to buy, just to make sure that all your cruises is remarkable and all of which they sort of close the loop. But I don't know, because then all of which means that after you've experience, you've had this fantastic experience, which is everything was connected and and you're able to access all these services while you're there, and then when you finish, the crewis you have this great feeling that, Oh boy, it was just such a great experience. So you then start dreaming about your next cruise. And so the Iot is actually IOT. In a sense, IAT is almost becoming more important than the ship and the facilities, because your experience is determined by by the services that are presented to you and customized. The ship is the carrier, the should try. Activity is the system. Yeah, that then the products becoming experiences. Maybe I'll finish with one of our it's not as good as world Caribbean, but it but I think it's a very innovative case. That one that many people will use every day, and that's the cost express of Costu now bought by a cocacola. Previously strategy is to have coffee shops all over the place, and they still do. But but they then went into vending machines, are customer of ours. But they people might not know there's ninety senses inside a custer coffee machine. Ninety and you think of that. I mean it is quite amazing what's inside them and what we help them, working with their partner to help them design the machine and aggregate the data from the sensors and back all it into the center. But one of the things that they do is the the coff the machines are now big digital displays and...

...to your point, they can say that the cruise ship is just the vehicle that the coffee that the machine dispenses copy, but actually it's a digital display advertising unit. What it can do is is obviously give you lots of choices. It's one square meter. It's not on a cost of premises in somebody else's premise, single product skeew that they roll out in every country with global ubichotus connectivity. But one of the things they're now doing is there that you can get your loyalty points by scanning the Qr Code with your phone. Now the point about opting into privacy is that you, you are saying, yes, I want my loyalty points, but they know who you are. So now you're building up this incredible data of everyone's coffee drinking profile on a unit of one, what they drink, where they get it, which choices they pressed on the screen and how often they drink it. And you think of the power of that data and the ability in the future to personalize the machine, to own who the whole ecosystem around. Yeah, yeah, services are natural features. Additional or third party still sell your start which just said, yeah, the whole vending is that. Then you could actually have relevant advertising. And then when g comes along, because you can do augmented reality. Think of POKEMON. This is not custos to some other machines or that other companies, but think of Pokemon, where you know you you point your phone and you can see characters on the street. Well then, with five Gu you put your phone up in front of the vending machine and you get a bill of materials, virtual bill of materials, which shows you the supply chain. You know, is it fair trade? The fair trade ingredients? So how many calories, where was it manufactured? And people are wanting to understand that information before they buy products. So the whole area retail, it is going to be much more about the information than the product itself. And so it's very, very interesting this and we could talk all day and I we need to finish off. I want to finish off by by asking you one last question. It goes back to the very first thing that you said, which I'm still thinking about. Wow, I mean, you're running a global organization. You expecting it to double over a period of time. So this is a very, very hot area. So there's lots of interesting people in this area with doing interesting things and and that's what we try and do for this podcast. So it is there one company or one person that you would recommend that our listeners would benefit from if they were to appear on a future IOT leaders podcast? Actually, the biggest sends to say one is yeah, yeah, it's one, because because this world is full of great inventors and yes, Compinis and ideas. An know that to you are in part of all the other players. So for Microsoft, yes, it's right. So so I'm not going to look for this in this direction. I did you...

...know something. Would we could do child to maybe geenre Jean Pierre throughout his he can show with your great war stories from the project. They did a tunision technologies, which technot a shot. Sorry, mirror the position technologies. Okay, they are. They operate the worldline and the work of Microsoft int PTC. So can show with you the war stories and great cases they they implemented either is a transition to counts for or PC together HEC. So I believe that this could be the great idea to we vite him to share with their audience. I will say I will, I will tell him, I will tell him that you're not them. And you mentioned Microsoft and the Attorney Shiki, who runs IOT globally for Microsoft, is actually going to be future guests. So that episode will be recorded shortly. So we will have the head of a Iot for Microsoft on a future IOT leaders podcast. But let's let's leave it there. It's fascinating. I think the I think start, you know, being only limited by your imagination, starting up with the disruption, working from that way and then getting to the technology is the big learning. It is so hard to do, otherwise everybody would be doing it. But I think that is a really, really valuable piece of advice to our listeners. So I just want to wrap up here. Thank everybody, as always, for listening to the IOT leaders podcast. We have a large list of people who who are wanting to come on the on the show and share their experiences. So thank you for tuning in. Thank you to my guest, Mirout, who I know is recently, in the last couple of months, being promoted to the world wide level. So congratulations, mirror, on your promotion. You got a very big job with a lot of very big clients and there's a lot of innovation going on and a lot of disruption. So thank you for sharing some of your insights and we look forward to talking to one of our listeners again in the next version of the IOT leaders podcast. So thanks me, O. Thank you for getting as an invitation. Thank you for the great discussion. Yes, great, we'll leave it then. Thanks very much. By thanks for tuning in to iote leaders, a podcast brought to you by SI. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, hoping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at Sicom you've been listening to iote leaders, featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision of Iot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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