IoT Leaders
IoT Leaders

Episode 27 · 2 months ago

Why One Size Doesn't Fit All in IoT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

IoT isn’t competitive in the same way other industries are. It’s more important for different companies to work in partnership than go up against one another. Nassia Skoulikariti, Founder of Apiro Data and Director of IoT at Mobile Ecosystem Forum, is an expert in all things IoT. Nassia knows that one size doesn’t fit all when it comes to IoT. Different businesses work together to fit every customer’s unique needs, which creates a mindset of partnership rather than competition. 

Join us as we discuss:

  • How Nassia got involved in IoT
  • Why IoT should be managed end to end
  • Why hardware developers need to engage in connectivity early on
  • How to look at IoT security holistically

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You're listening to Iot leaders, a podcast from S I that shares real iot stories from the field about digital transformation, swings and Mrs, Lessons Learned and innovation strategies that work. In each episode you'll hear our conversations with top digitization leaders on how Iot is changing the world for the better. Let iot leaders be your guide to Iot digital transformation and innovation. Let's get into the show. Hello and welcome to the IOTE leaders podcast with me, your host, Nik Le, the CEO of s I. Now, in this week's episode we have a very lively episode with a very interesting lady who's Greek and she's called Nacia school quilt, and that name actually you'll you'll find features in the first part of podcasts when we talk about the figuialties in pronouncing that. It is a very, very nice lady and talks about how she got into Iot. She's actually involved in three separate companies all around giving advice to different people in the IOT system of what's needed to make Iot success, and I think we get pretty practical pretty quickly in terms of three big issues. Roaming and what's needed to truly make it work for people, which is at all these areas of areas that she gets consulting on roaming hardware and why it really is important in Iot and what you need to do about it. And then the third one, which sort of puts a bow around everything, which is how you need a partner that understands these issues to be able to take you on the journey from where you are to a successful implementation. So NACIA is very, very active in the I t ecosystem, as you'll hear, been doing this for many, many years and understands it really well and I think there's so many issues in Iote that she probably gonna be very busy going forward. And a little spoiler alert, we also have a bizarre conversation about a virtual cat in this which makes an appearance in the podcast in a very strange way, I have to say. So with all of that, I hope you enjoyed this. Let me hand you over to my podcast with Nacia, and I need to make sure I get her name right, schoolly Kariti, who talks about what she's doing and everything to do with Iot, plus the virtual cat. Enjoy. So, Nacia, welcome to the IOT leaders podcast. Happy to be here, Nick. It's a pleasure thank you for inviting me. Well, I saw you on the guest list and wanted to talk to you for things that we were about to get into, but the first challenge I had was your name. So I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say that my guests this week is Nacia School Kariti. How did I do? You did very good, and actually you use the person Greek pronunciation, because many of you would guess that school is a Greek name, very Greek name. However, people struggle, and I have been struggling for a long time, to pronounce my name, and I'll tell you a funny story nick, if I may. Absolutely one of my former V piece in the previous life when I was working for cold many years ago, he was trying to figure out a way to remember my name and when you pronounced my name with an English accent, it sounds like school karate. So he thought that if he came up with if you think of school of Karate and you push put it all together, you come upate. It's very close to Naci's name, naciscate. So you know what the problem? You told me that it's like I can never get that out of my head now. So you know, it's something that I've used ever since as well, because, you know, he did affective same idea. Now, unfortunately it's all...

...gone, because all I can think of is that you run a school of Garate. But Anyway, listen, you don't run a school of Garati, but you are not yet, not yet. Well, well, I was going to say not yet because you're involved in a lot of stuff. So it wouldn't put it wouldn't. I wouldn't put it past you to be involved in this. But you know, when I was looking at your your CD and your Linkedin, there's three separate companies that all around Iot that really led to us having this conversation today. There was a founder and CEO of a company called a pro data, an IOT director for the Mobile Ecosystem Forum Industry Body, and then the VP of Iot at Global Teleco consult three all all connected with Iot, but three very different things. So maybe, just to get us going, could you sort of unpack those a little bit for our listeners and viewers, just so the we can actually see all the different areas of oot? Certainly, certainly so. I have what I call the portfolio career in many ways. I don't know if that has anything to do with me being in Germani and liking variety, but so I'll take one element and we can get into it. Um appro data, which is a company which has started about a bit over three years ago with the aim to make Iot Services and solutions easier to deploy and monetize and concentrating on the telcos field, the telcos particularly, and that's because I come for many, many years being in telcol twenty seven years ago I started in the Telcos and and the rest is history. I'm not going to bore you with the stories there yet. Maybe that would be a different podcast altogether. So that's up your data. Then this year have been involved with meth mobile ecosystem forum. I am heading the Iot section, and that means that because Meth is a non for profit association for the mobile ecosystem and historically they'll be doing a lot around the messaging and SMS and RCS, but they also have an area for the Internet of things and that's what I took over to manage, and that involves doing things such as running the monthly working groups for the members where we discuss different areas and challenges that they're facing. Our an Iot, doing webinars specific to Iyot and events. We actually do have an event coming in July for digital transformation and the first day will be all things Iot. So this is what I do for Meth and I'm also involved, as you very well mentioned, with GDC, or global TELECO consult they're very well known in the industry for making messaging in the telcol easy and for people to be able to deploy messaging services. So recently they decided to add the ID t element and layers and new pillar to the services that they offer under consultancy, and that's where I come into the picture. I am setting up the pillar for G DC. That means, you know, all things consultancy on the operational side, products they're working flows and everything that's involved around that. So just for clarity, when you say they get involved in the messaging, you mean like the position in the marketing messaging or like the SMS, the SMS side. So a lot of the work that G DC DOES IS ENABLING companies to get into the SMS so creating an SMS gateway, because they also play in the tell co sphere.

You know, there could be a voice provider that wants to add messaging as a mess especially what we call in the industry a to B SMS, which is the application to person. So they would set up advice, advice how to set up the gateways, how to set up the system. They also do network penetration tests to avoid fraud and to make sure that the network providers are not taking for a ride from the not well wishers in the industry. So in Iot is the newest service that the company is offering. So they will be advising mobile operators and telcoss that have iote services. They want to optimize them internally and that is like how to set up the organization to work with Iot, where they're missing people, how to find resources, what it makes sense operationally and also, if they don't have Iot, help connect the ecosystem. So we'll coming to U Nick and say Hey, nick, this company is getting into Iot. They need to partner in order to provide services. So we're going to get into all of that. And, you know, back to our opening. I actually I don't know how you do three jobs. There's no way you have time to run a I tell you, my birthday on Sunday and this is the gift that my cat got me. I don't know if you can see your cat. Did you say your cat got you a gift? Yeah, yeah, my cat got me a gift, and it's these watching this on video. Maybe you describe challenging. Yes, my cat, which, by the way, is also my virtual assistant. I tried to bring fun in my work in every way that I can. So if somebody is booking a meeting with me, I use an ai too big, an automation and tools. I made my cat. So Beni, who was my cat's name, will send you a message and email say you you know, this is the Times. Then as is free, and I get a message from Bennie telling me this person booked a meeting with you. Hold that, I have to time out. I was following you. I think you're saying you have a virtual assistance which is named after your physical cat. No, I actually made my cat to put her to work. Don't you can't. A cat cannot work. But where are we going? Yeah, exactly. Well, we can embed sensors, right, so it's virtual. Okay, but anyway, let's get back. So you had your birthday and you were about to describe what you yeah, so she got me this little pop hero and it's a figurine of wonder woman. This just sort of thank me for taking care of our well and everything else that I do. So you asked me how to do everything. This is what my family thinks, including my cat. You know, we have so many strange stories and good stories that pop out of the podcasts. I never know we were talking before we hit the record button. I never know where we're going to and always such great stories. And then when I talked to people afterwards, they often remember the stories more than they remember the content. But I guess that's why exactly. So let's drag it back. Well, actually know to you, so we sort of know where you've ended up and I want to talk about you know, you're advising people, you're sharing committees, you're advising the operators, you're seeing what people's problems are with Iot. I'M gonna get into all of that. But what about how did you get into this? I mean, it's an interesting place you've ended up. You talked about more than twenty years in the industry and whatever, but what's your story about how Nacia ended up doing this, doing yot? Well, it's a personal, I would say, driver that got me into Yot per said, before I even knew that iote existed. Many years ago, I was still doing telco and messaging and voice but at the time my late Dad, he passed the way last here, but he started to lose his memory and he would...

...disappear and we would have to find out make sure that, you know, we didn't lose them for good. So in the back of my head, loving technology and loving gadgets I have, that's a passion of mind, trying to test and find new gadgets and all that, I was starting to figure out a way that would make his life easier, in our life easier. It was a little bit selfish as well from that perspective, because I didn't want to be here in London when my dad was in Greece and worry where he is and what he's doing or my mom have the additional stress. And we're talking about many years ago now. We're talking about eight to nine years ago, where the wearables for the elderly they weren't as good as they are now, or they weren't even, you know, on the fore ground to have this discussion. So I was talking to people who stay. I want to find and I want to create a sensor or a bit of watch or something that it's not intrusive, so I know when my dad is at all times. I couldn't chip him. If I could, I would, but I couldn't, you know, yet at the time. So that's where my interest in Anyoti started from. I started digging and understanding more because I knew about machine to machine. I just hadn't put together the human element and that's where a lot of the challenges and the pains, the problems that we're trying to solve. So it really came out of a problem that I had to solve for my own family, so to ensure that we have peace of mind knowing that my dad, when he leaves the house, if he loses his memory and he doesn't know where he's at, we will be able to check on the phone or check on the screen and all that he's at that location. We can go find them. You know, I think you're the third guest on the podcast series who've actually got into iyot for that exact same reason. You're probably not aware, but the two of the guests who both I think we're in this sort of care business now, actually took that and actually said, I'm going to solve that problem for that specific sector. But it is interesting how many people got into Iot because they saw the potential of the technology to solve problems on, in particular health. The other thing that struck me is when when you said about if I could chip him, I would, but you couldn't. I remember about ten years ago when I was back in my Cisco Days, I was giving a speech. I got asked a question, I think, and on stage, I think it was, and somebody said, you know, about implanting a chip. I was traveling back and forth to America because I was doing a global role for Cisco based in the UK and traveling back and forth every two weeks. I mean literally back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and I just thought it was a pain in the but the passport, I didn't have global entry at that point and I just said on stage, well, you know, look at someone. I would hold my hand up and volunteer for a chip and you could put it behind my ear and you could put my passport on it and it was before apple pay, you know, and I could pay for things, you could have my medical records. We've found myself in a different country, you could get all my medical records and people said, oh no, nobody could ever do that. Nobody. Why would you ever do that? Privacy and whatever, and I said, well, it seems pretty crazy carrying a piece of paper called the passport around with you. I mean, it hasn't really been how many years? A couple of hundreds of more, I guess, and we're not there yet. We're not implanting these things on a mass scale, but with wearables we are getting a lot closer and I haven't used a credit card, now, physical piece of plastic, for over two years because everything is on the phone and you can do it when your watch, and so I think we are getting there. But as we both know, in Telco and in Iot in particular, progress is slow. It is always slower than you think. People, you know, we've been at this pre Iot was M to M. People say, well, pre M to M it was scarreder. We've been at it for a long, long time. So you advise people, operators, I guess, end users...

...working committees. So let's see if we can get to some of the big issues that you see ongoing at the moment. Now. You mentioned if we can start, if we may with meth the mobile ecosystem, for have a series of meetings and I think you in fact better sign this thing gets broadcast. I think this meeting will be over, but I think the next meeting that you have is on roaming and maybe you could just describe why is roaming the subject and what's your take on where we are right now, because it's a big it's a big issue, enormous and it's a big issue for the industry and a lot of people don't understand it. I don't think they need to understand it and then they suddenly have to when it comes to oot. Well, it's an enormous topic and it's one that it's not as broadly discussed if you're not within the industry and you're facing the pains. There was, based on what we do at Meth at report that came out and the majority of the enterprise is a big chunk of them. They have not plans of changing this year, next year what they're gonna do on the roaming side. That immediately led me to things like do they understand, when they're deploying connected services, connected products, that they don't stay sectionary in one country, in one area and they have to roll that the connectivity that they use to transport the data from that connective device could be roaming in another country if that device, especially if they want to make global skews, single skew manufacturer wants sell around the word exactly exactly. They're not like people like when I went to America I came back, like to do short term rowing when off voter phone when I was in the US. Products go to America and stay in America. They stay for a long period. You'll go to Brazil and yeah, and initially, as you know, when Iot products came out and we're using data connectivity, especially now we're talking about mobile data connectivity, there wasn't even a different product that was called Iot data connectivity. You know, device manufacturers would use any sin with data and test the products. Then the operators are there's something to this with Iot, let's create a product, because they have to have different pricing and there is is a lot more complicated and so and so forth. Then they created the Iot data specific connectivity SMS that that are being used for the connected devices. Now, if you're within a country, is fine, but when you're roaming it's very involved. And originally there were no barriers. A device could roam for there was no time limits, there was no one was looking at the day, no restrictions exactly, because we didn't have as many device sis and it wasn't so much data consumed keeople and it wasn't on the forefront of the mind. However, now, several countries, US included, they don't allow what it's called permanent roaming, so roaming in a particular country indefinitely. They only allow you a short period deill you switch to another service or you switch to different network provider and so and so forth. And that is where the problems come for the enterprises themselves and creates additional complications for the network providers. Is because all of a sudden your device could stop working, you lose connectivity. So what do you do? And that's a huge problem because something that you suppose as an enterprise that it will be connected is no longer and unless you work with a provider WHO's looked at this and has made provisions that it doesn't matter if you're going to be in the UK or you're going to be in the US, you're going to continue getting the services as we explain them to you. Yeah, it reads a...

...big thing. I always find it, I don't know what you think, that's here. It's almost like it's the emperor's clothes. You know, in my experience, and I've been more than thirty years in the industry, let me just leave it there. I won't say anymore, quite a few more than thirty years. But Anyway, I found in my career that many times, particularly when there's a technology transition or an industry disruption or something, there was something that was accepted as conventional wisdom, that suddenly people said the emperor's got no clothes or yes, but and at first people say oh, no, no, no, no, don't worry about that, and then suddenly people saying yeah, it is, and then suddenly, whoosh, people say I have to solve it. and to me one of the core things in IOT is this roaming which, as you rightly say, most people you know. Obviously you're aware about what we do. We we solve that issue through distributed localization. was roaming. But the reason we built that is because when we said to people, well, what about Rome, and we're fourteen year years old as a company, people would say, Oh, don't worry about that. When I talk to the operator. They don't tell me to worry about that. And yet, as you say, it's a second eight companies. They have roaming agreements with hundreds of others. So it's a many too many. I don't have any combinations. There is factor or whatever, but tens of thousands of roaming agreements. And if you go to these big shows like Mobile World Congress, there's a whole hale in the European version in Barcelona with people. Was Amazed. It's like a dating agency, all these operators meeting each other on speed dating to agree rowning agreements as a whole industry. And it's set on quotas and the quotas can change and people's policies can change and it just needs one person to say you've exceeded your quota and suddenly bang, and we know and users have no idea in advance. I mean we've seen devices that have been issued with four hour a notification of termination of agreements. He don't have enough that, what are you doing for hours? It takes days, if not months, to change and get anything with any of the operators. Unfortunately, good you have to especial device, which is, let's say, two hundred dollars. If you have five thousand devices, five thousand times two hundred dollars, I mean you can. So it's one of the central pillars of Iot is the consumer voice. Roaming model doesn't scale, and that's a really big issue, isn't it? Because at the moment you say that it's not like that model is going to change because roaming agreements. There's the financial component as well, isn't there that? It takes the connection. If they roam onto somebody else, they give a small percentage of what they collect. So data prices are coming down, which means the pressure on accepting roaming is actually getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So this is not like it's there's suddenly going to change and everyone's roaming on everybody else. Quite the opposite. This is a huge issue, isn't it? It is, and there's a good reason. I mean, if we look at it from the operator perspective for one minute, is for them having there's a vast amount of devices on their networks, utilizing their resources and taking so much of their resources Um without you know, they don't see much in terms of like payment per se. So the it's and it's narrow band or whatever it's ascent. It's not pay for the dedicated infrastrure. Does not pay for them to grow their infrastructure either, because in the past two years, because you know with what happened with covid and everything, their infrastructure with so what happened, you know, they had to scramble around to grow and rebuild in many ways to allow us all to be connected and stay connected. So multiply that exponentially with IOT devices. The resources that I needed to support the iyot infrastructure, the...

...iyot connective devices, is a mess and it costs a lot. So if you're an operator and you're looking at it, you're like, I'm going to take care of my own first, because this is what I'm going to see my return on investment the fastest, and then I'm going to deal with everything else. And as you well said, is the prices when it comes to connectivity are getting this bit commoditized. It's a commodity now when we're talking about connectivity. From now I'm switching back to the enterprise side of things. When I'm as an enterprise, I will be looking and say I want my device to work. I don't care how it works. I shouldn't. I should understand a bit more, but I want you, Mr iyot provider or Mrs Aiot provider, to help me get my device working. So for me it's a feature that you need to offer me, the connectivity along with everything else inbecorous and not let me worry about it. And regular listeners to list podcast will have heard me talk about our philosophy, which we know is different, and actually we haven't found anybody else who has approached this because we've always said from day one it isn't going to work and I just think it's inevitable. It's the things that we've talked about are only going to get worse than the amount of money being shared is lower, the infrastructure costs of higher, people costs a hire to run the infrastructure, the roaming agreements will break more and more and more in the House of cards. So we we like to call our what we have just to explain it in the context, and also a little bit of shameless adpotizing of course, but is basically like a star alliance model where we said look, it's never gonna work, so what if we could just federate distribute the connectivity from a single sin? But distributing a way where it localizes on as many networks as possible. So you solve the operators and then you use roaming as infill and then if you have your own SMSR or these, the remote simprovisioning capability abstracted and being agnostic in the cloud, you can actually provide it as a feature, as you say, and the operators are then getting localized connections and not through their roaming agreements. So they're very, very happy and the user is is getting less risk on deployment because you're not going to get kicked off because you're localizing. But that's a very different architectural model and we believe it's the only model that can work, the sort of Star alignes type model, because there's a lot of people saying, Oh, don't worry, we can do roaming and with the Sims we can change the profile Um. But you've got this underlying it feels like eggshells or a house of cards or whatever, all these roaming agreements, tens and tens of thousands of rowing agreements which at any time can go into Oh no, we've exceeded the quota, you need to move. It's very much built from the industry out, isn't it? It's not the enterprise in, and so I roaming. I can see why this is your big subject. If I can move for any F and for the operators, and it's something the industry has to solve in order to enable interoperability for the user. Can I move to another area, because I think that in part of your work, and I don't know which one of the three companies, you talk about working with operators. What about the another emperor's clothes issue, if you like, which is I think people we think, and I wanted to be into in ner you people have not even thought about we talked about roaming and it's education. What do you mean roaming? And we spend a lot of time educating. Another big area where we spend time educating is hardware. So what we find is that people say to us, Oh, I just need a sin, and we say, well, we like, I'd like to see a device. WHAT'S THE MODEM? What's The firmware settings? What's the interaction between the Modem and the SIM? How do we do Battery Life Management? And they say no, no, no, no, I just need to sin because I just want to put the Sim in the device. And we we always say no, no, no, it doesn't work like that in Iote it's much more complete it and putting a sim in a device. Do you see...

...the subjective? And most people thought the we've seen the back of hardware because now with cloud, the applications are in the cloud. You just don't know. They don't nothing about harder. They don't want to know anything about hard really, they don't want to know anything about Romi. What's your view on this subject? Does that come up as well? It comes up especially not so much, you know, on the connectivity side of things, but more on the security side of things when which I think those two are very much related really. So I've had talks from the hardware vendors and also companies who need hardware. So I've seen it from both sides of the story, if you wish. So the hardware vendors, the ones who make the actual senses. They struggle to understand from their perspective that they need to engage on the connectivity side and the other elements of the IOT ecosystem early on, because they're all connected and interrelated and they have to work and function very well together in order to provide, you know, the added element of security at the same time, because we had there's no standards or regulations as of yet, or the ones that are adhered and we have a lot of older devices. They don't adhere to what we now would call standards and the firmware are not updated. The security element is, I would say, very, very weak, and those are the devices that create the risk, with the millions of devices that are vot devices, as many devices that are not secure. They don't have the right connectivity and they don't have the right security. So there is a lot of education that you mentioned that needs to happen on the hardware side of things, both for those who make the hardware but also those who use and buy and use the hardware. So I think you've you've raised there is two separate issues and they're both really important. I could like to deal with each of them individually. If I made one of the first points you made there was the hardware is really important when it comes to Iot and the hardware people who make their sensors, or make them, I guess, the modules as well, modems slash modules. They need to actually do more to think about the connectivity up front as opposed to saying well, I just make it. It goes down the line the supply chain, somebody else thinks about the connectivity. Because what we find, you know, we bought a hardware company specifically that we get engaged in hardware and every one of our customers that we have it's one of the most valuable things that we do actually. But what we basically then have to go back to say well, look at your firmware settings in your motor work. You need to do that, and it's because the industry isn't engaging with it up front. Now, of course, with I SIM and that we're in discussions with several companies around this. But with Im that there is hope on the horizon because the symbill eventually disappear physical them and it will become firmware inside the circuitry and silicon layer of either the chip set or the module. At that point you will get pre integration of connectivity capabilities being produced by the supply chain, either at the chip set and or at the module levels. So I think the industry will get there with im but as of right now, none of the module guys really worry about the connectivity because they just say look I'm in the business to sell modules, I'm not in the business to solve connectivity. So I think the industry, I'm hoping that the IM the issue solves that. But you also mentioned security and the challenge of course, with security, huge, multiple challenges. What a subject, but definitely the threat surfaces extentially growing. So it's a huge issue and there are billions of attacks on IOT devices. People lose incredible data, they lose their jobs. But it's interesting, isn't it, that the traditional...

...way we in the I t industry, one of the ways we in the I industry have solved that is by putting an agent of some sort on the device. I mean, if you have a Microsoft PC, you know what it is. You have an Iphone, you know what it is, you know the target architecture. So you can create an agent that goes on that target architecture because it's fixed. The problem with Ir t devices is the proliferation and so the concept of designing an agent for everybody's devices is just physically impossible. Yeah, it's I have to use like Ai, a nominee detection behavior techniques because you can't create specific software for the device. Yeah, and the security historically, when we look at it. It was the responsibility of I t right. And while we're talking about Iot, you've got the operational site, and before a company wouldn't think of dealing with security on the operational there. It was just let me secure my border, let me secure my devices. But what Iot is I t and all t built together. I mean, I'm saying something that everybody knows. But when we're looking at security, the security has to be looked at it more holistically and more broader and not as silent anymore. We talk a lot about securing by design and what that means is like from the inception, when a hardware device is, you know, build all the way through the whole ecosystem, because one designing an IOT system, we look at the entire stack. So you can just secure by design the device. You have to secure by design all the elements, and that also, I would add. I would say connectivity by design, and I would say, Hey, you know all kinds of things. Everything has to be brought forward like building built in supposed to add it on. Is what you're saying. When that's where a lot of the problems that we're having in challenges that we haven't within the industry are coming from today is because things are being retrofitted. Everything is an afterthought instead of looking and taking care of it from the beginning. Even if we're okay, I'M gonna put a little bit side note there. It's impossible to capture everything. You're always going to have to make some changes and if you didn't, make in different iterations. But the more we spend time thinking of the design and understanding what building across the ecosystem, the easier life will become when we're deploying. We're trying to accelerate the growth with an Ayot. So security is immense and everybody, I mean one of the its top of mind for for companies, for enterprises wanted to adopt Ayot. Is just what they're looking for. Is based on the research that meft it last year for two over four hundred seventy five enterprises, is they're looking for somebody and security was on the top ten. But non surprisingly to me at least, it wasn't a surprise that they're looking for somebody that can help them accommodate the entire end twent deployment of Ayote. And this is there is a good reason for that. Is because they don't have the internal know how, they might not have the time. So and also they want to ensure that the device element is there and is taking care of somebody understands and working with the connectivity providers and they're working and collaborating together, working with the platform and the analytics and so on and so forth. And that was one of the biggest things we're looking for. And t went managed services when it comes to Iot, and that's probably the third and probably final big subject that we've got time for in this podcast, which is this idea of Iot is not a D I y set of components in the way that people think it is, and you actually need a partner. They can take you from the idea through toation and be a guide. I mean that's why I...

...was where we've got that strange balloon for those of what we've got that balloon behind your head. You're like balloons? No, well, yeah, but the idea, at least our branding, is you need a someone who understands all these issues to be your guide. The guide on the balloon lots of images around guiding and giving advice, trusted advisor, and so you have to have a professional services capability you have to have a hardware design capability, you have to have a connectivity capability, you have to be agnostic, and it's right the way through to implementation. It reminds me of I also on these podcasts end up talking about well, when back in the day. It reminds me back in the day, you know, I mean the I t industry in frankly, the eighties and the nineties was components and the and the people who the system integrators and the value added resellers and the people who aggregated it all together and made it happen. And Yeah, the big companies did a lot themselves, but then they found that they were recruiting so many people as the amount of technology increased exponentially and all the solutions weren't designed to interact with each other. And then he ultimately you've got cloud where people say well, let me, I'll just take care of it and I'll sell you a service, and I think Iot has to go that route because it is so complicated. Yes, you need an advisor, you need to tell people stop. I know you want to buy devices, put Sims in them and deploy them, but these are the reasons why it's not going to work, the security, the hardware, the firmware, the connectivity. And it's a strange sales process because you spend the first hour of the meeting telling people these are all the problems you're going through face, and people often say, well, other companies I talked to just tell me it's the sime and and this is the price of data and click here and it will arrive tomorrow morning. And they say yeah, but you do realize it won't work because these are industry issues. I mean we're taking an industry that wasn't then in Bariot. It was designed for consumer, but you mentioned SMS, and designed for consumer. Voice and roaming was designed for people who went abroad and came back again pretty shortly. And hardware was, you know, sort of designed by hardware companies and the IPHONES, the phones, were designed by phone companies and all their certification and the tight coupling of the hardware stuffware was done in Iot. It's not like that. It's a series of it's like buying cars with components arived from multiple companies and are dumped on your driveway like a kid car. You have to put it together yourself. You have to put it together yourselves and actually then you suddenly realized after a while, why did I do this? But that is where we are. I think there is hope. I think global operator agnostic switching its key, E. Y C C as a standard is key. I sin is ultimately going to make the hardware thing, as you say, it has to drop down to this regally has to. And then on the security side of the idea of agent or, certainly we believe agentless security. We partnered with Armis, who I believe that the leading company in the gardener and Que Magic quadrant. But the idea of there's so many different hardware proliferations that you have to use AI tools to look at behavior and spot a nominally behavior. You can't hut a piece of software on. It's one component of the design of services. But the idea of monitoring, I'm saying unusual behavior, because you just can't say here's a software update, like SEMANTECH does, deploy it to my Iot devices, because they've all got different operating systems, firm modems, chips, sensors. It's very fragmented, isn't it? It's extremely and I think it is all busy, very much so, and I think the whole ecosystem is getting closer, but it's still fragmented in silent irrespective of which they we're looking arts and to use myth cliches, and...

I love my cliches, is like one size doesn't fit all. It's especially through with Iot. But it's also very important is the partnerships, because we're looking historically at least on the Telco Industry, and has been changing with when we're getting into C pass an Omni channel. But historically it's like, oh, we're working together, we signed roaming agreements, but also competing for the same customer the same minute, the same SMS message and and now the same data and selling Sims. Right, but for Iot it's not. The competition really is like working together to provide an ecosystem, to build it, because there isn't one company, you know. Even if you look at the big hyper scalers, they don't know all the elements. It's the partnerships they really that's selling to the customer. So it's through those partnerships and putting these elements together to ensure that the customer is getting that once size you know fits or for the particular for the end to end interaction because the customer, the end user, they just want their device, they just want the cog, whatever that is, to work because data. They want the business outcome and they want to and the final comment, what they they want the ability to turn products into experiences and to by using data, to create new experiences and they want to not be disrupted by people who get their ahead of them. I mean a lot of the case studies that we talk about are the people who have made it through the maze with a lot of handholding, but they have created amazing vending machines, they've created amazing medical devices, they've done amazing thing with smart meters, they've amazing tracking devices. But when you do get through, you actually the gain market share. I mean, you know, everything that has power will be connected. Like it's not a debate, it's it's not an it, it's when it's inevitable, it's inevitable. And I think that part of the business that you're in, the part of business that we're in, and, as you rightly say and everybody else, we need to work together more. So we just say, you know what, we're going to work together as an ecosystem and we're just gonna we're going to do this and we'll handle all that complexity between ourselves. But we've for too many years exposed the complexity and the proprietary silos and the components to the industry and and as a results of whicharity adoption has been held back. I mean, we've been talking about this for for a long time. I mean we haven't lived up to the hype, but there is a good reason for that. I personally believe is because ourselves, we didn't know where it's going to go. We were testing the waters per se, and part of what we're doing as an industry is to keep educating. I mean a lot of what I do years providing. You built a career around it. It's instead of the Karate School, you've actually found that this is exactly it's an Ayoti school, and I don't think you're only going to get to do that. I mean you were. There's such a demand and there is enormous hope because that people are some amazing that's why we produce our tea leaders podcast to highlight the issues but also to highlight the successes. So we have about fifty and in terms of PODCASTS, people who one of the issues like this, but also education, but also about fifty of the podcast are people who have taken a hand holding, that taken a service. They're all artists, as of course it was our podcast, and they've actually implemented amazing things and you know, we they are really doing well. Every person we bring on board they want to talk about it because they're doing so well. But we're just, I think, in Jeffrey more parlance, we feel like we're just crossing the chasm. Now it feels like the early days of open sit to me, opens stems,...

...or the early days of cloud or the early days of mobile phones. Feels like it's just it's starting to move and COVID has helped because it's put a focus on cross reduction and getting more revenue, differentiating products and downturns bizarrely held technology adoption curves so very much. So I think, like you said, we had to wait for the hype to die down so something ask games and become hype. Nowadays we're talking about a lot about the metaphors, but us at the IOT world, we know that we've been there with digital twins and we can, you know, imagine what can happen when you take digital twins to the metaverse and different conversation, Different Post for Microsoft on digital twins and the metaverse. That's a whole new subject, on a different point of the hype cycle. We want to solve some basic issues first, around devices and connectivity and getting customers deployed and producing IOT devices that just work when you switch them up. So and then I think maybe at some point you'll be running a fourth company, which is the metaverse, digital twin me or something, you know, whatever. Now you always gonna know what happens. You know, one thing that I don't want is to wake up one morning and say what if? I try to avoid that. No, well, I think your virtual assistant, your cat dog, said all right, yeah, what you did say the name of the cat, the Cat Binnie. Binnie. I think Binnie is going to be very, very busy, because it's hugely your services and this is an area that's going to keep us all busy for quite a long time. So listen, let's leave it there. We could talk for a long, long time. Very much, but really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing a lot of information with us, a lot of thoughts, sort of background, your personal story and really practical view, I think, on where we are what we need to do to actually deliver on the roadmap variety. So I just want to thank thank you for this, nasia. Thanks for agreeing to guests on IOT leaders podcasts. So, for our listeners and viewers, thank you for listening to this episode with me, your host, Nicol CEO of s I, and you can find a lot of our all the previous podcasts, a lot of the information that we talked about. It's all on our website at SI DOT COM, which, quick advertorial, has recently had a this week in fact, a as we're recording this, a major revamp around a new offering called infinity, which I'll just leave it there. But the SI website has been just completely revamped with a lot of content, videos, tutorials, help case studies around many of the issues that we've talked about on this episode and indeed the previous ones and, I'm sure, the future ones. So again, Nasi, thank you very much for being I've been working together going forward and thank you to our listeners and I look forward to talking to you again on the next episode. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Iot leaders, a podcast brought to you by S I. Our team delivers innovative Global Iot cellular connectivity solutions that just work, helping our customers deploy differentiated experiences and disrupt their markets. Learn more at S I dot Com. You've been listening to Iot leaders featuring digitization leadership on the front lines of Iot. Our Vision for this podcast is to be your guide to Iot and digital disruption, helping you to plot the right route to success. We hope today's lessons, stories, strategies and insights have changed your vision Biot. Let us know how we're doing by subscribing, rating, reviewing and recommending us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,.

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